Augustinians and War

General Christian Theology
Ken
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Re: Augustinians and War

Post by Ken »

barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:40 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:39 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:09 pmNo, I am not responsible when a police officer decides to shoot someone. Sorry, Ken.
  • The police and sheriffs in your community are hired by your tax dollars.
  • The standards for use of force, training, weapons, (whether officers shoot first or as a last resort) are all determined and supervised by elected officials in your community.
  • The type of police officers who are hired, and their educational and training requirements are all determined by your community. Did you know that hairdressers in Ohio are required to have 2.5-times more training than police officers? Look it up.
  • The disciplinary standards and process for reining in "rogue" police officers are determined by elected representatives in your community.
  • The law enforcement priorities in your community are determined by your elected representatives. Whether they, for example, profile and target minorities for traffic stops as a law enforcement priority or revenue source (https://www.al.com/news/2022/01/police- ... -hole.html), or focus their efforts on community policing, dealing with more difficult issues like child abuse, substance abuse, and other social problems.
You may choose to completely disengage from all of this. Many if not most Americans do as is their right. But it doesn't absolve you from violence or injustice committed on your behalf.
I think Ken raises some good points, non participation and silence eventually become a fig leaf when the violence and coersion are consistently done for the benefit of you and your economic power. Robert used (overextended in my opinion) this argument to prove that non voting is the moral equivalent of voting for the status quo. Those who's lot in life lies at the pointy end of the coersion generally see through such evasion.

Image some future dystopia where power centers have shifted east and China sends drones around the world to execute people for emitting too much carbon. How comforted would we feel if the 100 million Chinese Christians flourishing there would shrug and say, "we don't support that."

I don't know where to draw these lines, but silence, inaction and evasion are not seemly for children walking in the power of the true king. This calls for wisdom, creativity and action.
It's not that I'm arguing we need to be social justice warriors like some urban liberal churches seem to suggest. Or be pro-life warriors like some conservative evangelical churches suggest.

I'm only pointing out that in any democratic society we are all collectively responsible for the things that our government does on our behalf. How we choose to respond and engage (or not) is something we are all free to choose for ourselves. And everyone is going to have their own calculus of which issues are important and which are not.

That is what is fundamentally different from living in a democracy compared to living under the Roman Empire, Communist China, or Theocratic Iran. And even in those societies people are often active in governance at the local level even if they have no role or input at the national level. Even during the time of Jesus local villages and communities largely managed their own affairs and were largely left alone by Rome as long as they paid their taxes and didn't revolt. So many of the early church leaders during the time of the apostles would have been highly involved in the governance of their own local communities even if they weren't engaged in directing the whole Roman Empire. That is how Jewish society worked.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
RZehr

Re: Augustinians and War

Post by RZehr »

That is like saying a child is responsible for the decisions their parents make, by virtue of received benefits. I don't subscribe to imposed responsibility by virtue of beneficial privilege's. When I travel to another country and benefit from them, am I responsible for their government as well? No. Nor am I realistically responsible for my government. I am responsible for the things the the government requires of me. I am responsible to obey traffic laws and am responsible to pay my taxes. I'm not responsible if the government makes bad laws, unless I am part of the governmental body making those laws.
War crimes aren't imposed on civilians, they are imposed on the people who actually are responsible.

I had no say in determining whether or not this country is a democracy or a dictatorship. Just because it is a democracy, does not make me responsible for that democracy.
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temporal1

Re: Augustinians and War

Post by temporal1 »

There is a difference between “acts of war” and “war crimes.”
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Ken
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Re: Augustinians and War

Post by Ken »

We have a Christian responsibility to care for God's creation
Why should we be concerned about the environment? It isn’t just because of the dangers we face from pollution, climate change, or other environmental problems—although these are serious. For Christians, the issue is much deeper: We know that God created the world, and it belongs to Him, not us. Because of this, we are only stewards or trustees of God’s creation, and we aren’t to abuse or neglect it. The Bible says, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it” (Psalm 24:1).

When we fail to see the world as God’s creation, we will end up abusing it. Selfishness and greed take over, and we end up not caring about the environment or the problems we’re creating for future generations. -Billy Graham
We have a Christian responsibility to be Peacemakers:

“Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.”


We have Christian responsibility towards the poor
“Whoever oppresses the poor insults his maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him”
I could go on and on. But more than any other single factor, the government that we elect affects how our society engages with creation, engages in war and peace, and affects poverty. And pretty much every other social and worldly issue mentioned in the Bible. You can say you care about the God's creation, peacemaking, or poverty. But if you are completely apathetic and disengaged with how the single largest force in our society engages on those topics then you really aren't being serious or honest.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Augustinians and War

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:52 pmI could go on and on. But more than any other single factor, the government that we elect affects how our society engages with creation, engages in war and peace, and affects poverty. And pretty much every other social and worldly issue mentioned in the Bible. You can say you care about the God's creation, peacemaking, or poverty. But if you are completely apathetic and disengaged with how the single largest force in our society engages on those topics then you really aren't being serious or honest.
Wrong. The Bible never says we have a duty to vote, and most people's vote never makes the tiniest bit of difference. Most elections are won by big margins - my vote will never make any difference anywhere. Neither will yours.
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Ken
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Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Augustinians and War

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:53 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:52 pmI could go on and on. But more than any other single factor, the government that we elect affects how our society engages with creation, engages in war and peace, and affects poverty. And pretty much every other social and worldly issue mentioned in the Bible. You can say you care about the God's creation, peacemaking, or poverty. But if you are completely apathetic and disengaged with how the single largest force in our society engages on those topics then you really aren't being serious or honest.
Wrong. The Bible never says we have a duty to vote, and most people's vote never makes the tiniest bit of difference. Most elections are won by big margins - my vote will never make any difference anywhere. Neither will yours.
I did not say you have an obligation to vote. With respect to the topic of this thread, I said you have an obligation to be a peacemaker. And if you completely and utterly ignore or hand-wave away the role that your government has in affecting war and peace at the international level, or violence and justice at the local level, then you are not being serious or honest. But of course, how you choose to fulfill that obligation, and how you choose to balance it against all your other Christian obligations is up to you.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Sudsy

Re: Augustinians and War

Post by Sudsy »

I agree we have an obligation to be peacemakers. Our role is to introduce people to the Prince of Peace. Real peace is found in knowing Jesus. When we are walking in the Spirit we will not only be experiencing God's peace but able to be at peace with everyone. Even each other with the way we view some things. 'All we are saying is give peace a chance' - (sounds like a song :roll: ) For the believer this means give Jesus a chance to rule in one's life.

'If possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone' - Romans 12:18
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Ken
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Re: Augustinians and War

Post by Ken »

Sudsy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:39 pm I agree we have an obligation to be peacemakers. Our role is to introduce people to the Prince of Peace. Real peace is found in knowing Jesus. When we are walking in the Spirit we will not only be experiencing God's peace but able to be at peace with everyone. Even each other with the way we view some things. 'All we are saying is give peace a chance' - (sounds like a song :roll: ) For the believer this means give Jesus a chance to rule in one's life.

'If possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone' - Romans 12:18
Do you think that evangelism is the ONLY thing that Jesus was talking about when he said “blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called children of God?”
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Augustinians and War

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:18 pm
Sudsy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:39 pm I agree we have an obligation to be peacemakers. Our role is to introduce people to the Prince of Peace. Real peace is found in knowing Jesus. When we are walking in the Spirit we will not only be experiencing God's peace but able to be at peace with everyone. Even each other with the way we view some things. 'All we are saying is give peace a chance' - (sounds like a song :roll: ) For the believer this means give Jesus a chance to rule in one's life.

'If possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone' - Romans 12:18
Do you think that evangelism is the ONLY thing that Jesus was talking about when he said “blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called children of God?”
Yes. Jesus didn't come to the Roman Empire and then try to change government policy. We don't see him bringing petitions before the Roman Senate.
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barnhart
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Re: Augustinians and War

Post by barnhart »

Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:24 pm
It's not that I'm arguing we need to be social justice warriors like some urban liberal churches seem to suggest. Or be pro-life warriors like some conservative evangelical churches suggest.
Agreed. Those options seem both dangerous and ineffective. And possibly counter to the mandate of heavenly citizens.
Ken wrote: I'm only pointing out that in any democratic society we are all collectively responsible for the things that our government does on our behalf.
I can see why this is an attractive belief, democracy is seductive. But I would say from a Kingdom perspective heavenly citizens are collectively responsible to infiltrate our societies as salt and light.
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