Augustinians and War

General Christian Theology
joey_the_ox
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Re: Augustinians and War

Post by joey_the_ox »

Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:03 pm A. I believe that violence by humans was never God's intention. In light of man's choices, the sword is ordained of God outside the perfection of Christ and is therefore not to be used by Christians in the NT.
To drill down on this a bit, by "the sword" do you mean "all violent human acts"? I'll be open with my position, which is that I do not believe that the New Testament categorically rules out all forms of violence/coercion for Christians. It might be interesting for us to examine where exactly we differ in our interpretation of various passages.
Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:03 pm B. I think coercion should not be used by humans in the kingdom of Christ, except with children, and with those who do not have full mental capability.
Do you derive this belief from the New Testament? If so, where do you find the exceptions?
Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:03 pm C. I think the principle of double effect only has a place outside the kingdom of Christ. Whether or not it is moral or amoral outside the kingdom of Christ I do not know. Within the kingdom of Christ, two wrongs never make one right.
The principle of double effect is not saying that two wrongs make a right. It rather states that one may morally do something (an action) that has two effects, one good and one evil, provided that certain conditions are fulfilled. I think that most people will admit such a principle in some form - though the details of the conditions do matter.

Here is one example. Suicide is wrong, but if a vicious tiger is charging towards a child who is running away and almost at the door of a house, a mother may without moral blame place herself between the tiger and the child. She does not will her own death as a result of this action (she would much rather not die), and if she happened to not die as a result, there would otherwise be nothing blameworthy about her action. The good effect (the saving of the child's life) is also produced directly by the action she takes. It is also a grave or serious matter - she should not carry out such an action for the sake of, say, a pet fish. In the end, many people would agree that her action is morally good even though it has an "evil" effect - namely her own death or at least serious bodily harm.

Another example which I hesitate to bring up on this forum because I've seen some of the heated discussion about it ( :) ) is vaccines. Again, people disagree here. But if you do decide to take a vaccine that is "abortion-derived," then in a sense you (and possibly those around you) are benefiting from an evil act. So the question becomes: are there certain conditions under which it might be permissible to benefit from a grave evil act? A variant of the principle of double effect can be used to argue that in the specific case of the covid vaccines, taking the vaccine can indeed be a morally justifiable act. (You might or might not agree in this particular case, and my intent is not to sidetrack this into a vaccine argument.)

Some more examples relevant to the current discussion where the principle of double effect might be applied: paying taxes that are then used for evil actions, living in a town where order is kept by a police force using what you believe to be evil/wrong actions, buying groceries from a store that endorses and promotes evil, buying a book from a company that prints other books aimed at corrupting children, driving on a road that was built due to bribes paid to a corrupt politician, etc. I am confident in saying that at some point in your personal moral choices, you do indeed apply some form of the principle of double effect. Or to put it another way, you in some way benefit from evil even though there is the possibility of making a choice that would remove that benefit. Again, different people draw the lines here in different places regarding what is justifiable and what isn't - I'm just emphasizing that everyone applies the principle in some form or another and indeed cannot avoid doing so.
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joey_the_ox
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Re: Augustinians and War

Post by joey_the_ox »

barnhart wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:08 pm Joey, the wording of the Schleithiem Confession is "the sword", meaning coersive and violent action of the state, is "outside the perfection of Christ", and therefore intrinsically a part of the kingdoms of this world, and has no part in the kingdom of heaven. Today you will find Anabaptists quite divided on the questions you pose. It was clearer in the 16th century when the sword was being used on you rather than on your behalf. I think we need to sharpen our theology in this area.
I've been thinking about this a bit. In my opinion, Schleitheim is flawed/mistaken. First of all, it doesn't make theological sense to posit this God-ordained authority "outside the perfection of Christ" when Christ Himself said "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." It also seems to be a type of “moral laundering.” If indeed “the sword” has an important role to play in the ordering of society, then taking the Schleitheim position means that one would benefit from this role, but also forever avoid taking any part in it. Speaking in terms of a church that confesses Schleitheim, the flourishing and continued existence of the church in terms of its individual members would seem to be furthered by living in a somewhat just and orderly society, and the order and justice of that society is partially due to members of that society applying “the sword” towards its God-ordained ends ("it punishes and kills the wicked and guards and protects the good", to quote from the confession). But the church, in refusing to have any part in this role, then effectively passes off the “dirty work” from which it benefits to others. It would be more consistent to say that something is fundamentally wrong with the application of "the sword" instead of saying "it is fine if you 'out there' use the sword, and in fact you are ordained by God to do so to protect/order the society of which we are a part, but we 'in here' are forbidden from using it."

More fundamentally, Schleitheim, or at least the interpretation of Schleitheim that identifies the sword with the "coercive and violent action of the state" seems to be a type of category error. I haven't completely figured out yet how to express this in a way that would make sense from an Anabaptist perspective, but one starting point would be to consider that "the state" in our modern sense is not a fundamental category or a necessary political form. Some have argued that Machiavelli came up with our modern idea of the "state" and some say that is not quite correct - but the point is that "the state" in the sense of "an impersonal form of rule possessing a monopoly of coercive authority within a set territorial boundary" is a modern and historically contingent idea (I pulled the definition from here.) If this point is conceded, it becomes obvious that Schleitheim is not "cutting reality at the joints" and that another formulation may be needed.

Schleitheim in fact increases the power of the modern liberal state by essentially assenting to the idea that the state has a monopoly on violence (and, in the terms of the confession, a God-ordained monopoly!). It is interesting that the confession does not give the state a monopoly on coercion per se - rather it limits the form of coercion that may be used "inside the perfection of Christ" to the ban.
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Ernie

Re: Augustinians and War

Post by Ernie »

joey_the_ox wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:58 amIt would be more consistent to say that something is fundamentally wrong with the application of "the sword" instead of saying "it is fine if you 'out there' use the sword, and in fact you are ordained by God to do so to protect/order the society of which we are a part, but we 'in here' are forbidden from using it."
Why couldn't a person say both?

"God never intended for people to use the sword, but among those who choose to live in a society that needs swords, God ordains people from that kingdom to use the sword."
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joey_the_ox
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Re: Augustinians and War

Post by joey_the_ox »

Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:08 am
joey_the_ox wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:58 amIt would be more consistent to say that something is fundamentally wrong with the application of "the sword" instead of saying "it is fine if you 'out there' use the sword, and in fact you are ordained by God to do so to protect/order the society of which we are a part, but we 'in here' are forbidden from using it."
Why couldn't a person say both?

"God never intended for people to use the sword, but among those who choose to live in a society that needs swords, God ordains people from that kingdom to use the sword."
If someone "from that kingdom" asked you if their use of the sword was ordained by God or not, what would you say? If you say "yes" and they ask "does that mean I should use the sword?" and you say "no," then what do you mean by God ordaining it?

Also, don't you live in the same society? Or have you somehow removed yourself from all of the benefits that accrue because someone else is using the sword?
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HondurasKeiser

Re: Augustinians and War

Post by HondurasKeiser »

joey_the_ox wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:58 am
barnhart wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:08 pm Joey, the wording of the Schleithiem Confession is "the sword", meaning coersive and violent action of the state, is "outside the perfection of Christ", and therefore intrinsically a part of the kingdoms of this world, and has no part in the kingdom of heaven. Today you will find Anabaptists quite divided on the questions you pose. It was clearer in the 16th century when the sword was being used on you rather than on your behalf. I think we need to sharpen our theology in this area.
I've been thinking about this a bit. In my opinion, Schleitheim is flawed/mistaken. First of all, it doesn't make theological sense to posit this God-ordained authority "outside the perfection of Christ" when Christ Himself said "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." It also seems to be a type of “moral laundering.” If indeed “the sword” has an important role to play in the ordering of society, then taking the Schleitheim position means that one would benefit from this role, but also forever avoid taking any part in it. Speaking in terms of a church that confesses Schleitheim, the flourishing and continued existence of the church in terms of its individual members would seem to be furthered by living in a somewhat just and orderly society, and the order and justice of that society is partially due to members of that society applying “the sword” towards its God-ordained ends ("it punishes and kills the wicked and guards and protects the good", to quote from the confession). But the church, in refusing to have any part in this role, then effectively passes off the “dirty work” from which it benefits to others. It would be more consistent to say that something is fundamentally wrong with the application of "the sword" instead of saying "it is fine if you 'out there' use the sword, and in fact you are ordained by God to do so to protect/order the society of which we are a part, but we 'in here' are forbidden from using it."

More fundamentally, Schleitheim, or at least the interpretation of Schleitheim that identifies the sword with the "coercive and violent action of the state" seems to be a type of category error. I haven't completely figured out yet how to express this in a way that would make sense from an Anabaptist perspective, but one starting point would be to consider that "the state" in our modern sense is not a fundamental category or a necessary political form. Some have argued that Machiavelli came up with our modern idea of the "state" and some say that is not quite correct - but the point is that "the state" in the sense of "an impersonal form of rule possessing a monopoly of coercive authority within a set territorial boundary" is a modern and historically contingent idea (I pulled the definition from here.) If this point is conceded, it becomes obvious that Schleitheim is not "cutting reality at the joints" and that another formulation may be needed.

Schleitheim in fact increases the power of the modern liberal state by essentially assenting to the idea that the state has a monopoly on violence (and, in the terms of the confession, a God-ordained monopoly!). It is interesting that the confession does not give the state a monopoly on coercion per se - rather it limits the form of coercion that may be used "inside the perfection of Christ" to the ban.
I am sympathetic to your critique, but I wonder if the silo-ing off of activity that is God-ordained yet 'outside the perfection of Christ' is something akin to the Thomistic typologies of Law. Natural Law being 'knowable' by all mankind and necessary for the proper functioning of the universe but inferior to, subordinate to and superseded by the Divine Law that one can only know through Faith in Christ. I may be way off and perhaps even have my Natural Law all mixed up but am curious as to your response.
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Ernie

Re: Augustinians and War

Post by Ernie »

joey_the_ox wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:54 amIf someone "from that kingdom" asked you if their use of the sword was ordained by God or not, what would you say? If you say "yes" and they ask "does that mean I should use the sword?" and you say "no," then what do you mean by God ordaining it?
God "ordained" the OT law, and he "ordained" kings in the OT, but I don't believe he ever intended to do either. In the former, he was dealing with a nation that wanted to go back to Egypt. When you have a nation of people who want to go back to Egypt, you need to deal with them differently than folks like Daniel, Job, and Noah. With the latter, God explicitly said he wanted to be their king, but they rejected him. So then he gave them plan B. In the New Testament, God has made a way for both Plan A and for Plan B.
joey_the_ox wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:54 am Also, don't you live in the same society? Or have you somehow removed yourself from all of the benefits that accrue because someone else is using the sword?
My preference would be to only live in a society that only operates according to plan A. Then there would be no need for the sword. Since not everyone in society lives according to plan A, we need the sword or the threat of the sword.

From my way of thinking, the only reason I benefit from those who are ordained to use the sword, is because there are Plan B people in the world. The only reason God "ordains" Plan B people to use the sword is because he wants his kingdom to flourish. Plan A people are to pray for our governors so that we can live a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. If there were no humans who were willing to restrain evil, God could probably bring plagues like he did in the OT that would kill off the bad people like he did in Egypt, but as long as there are humans who are willing to restrain evil, God uses/ordains them. This is how he protects the righteous and allows his kingdom to expand and grow.
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joey_the_ox
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Re: Augustinians and War

Post by joey_the_ox »

HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:18 pm I am sympathetic to your critique, but I wonder if the silo-ing off of activity that is God-ordained yet 'outside the perfection of Christ' is something akin to the Thomistic typologies of Law. Natural Law being 'knowable' by all mankind and necessary for the proper functioning of the universe but inferior to, subordinate to and superseded by the Divine Law that one can only know through Faith in Christ. I may be way off and perhaps even have my Natural Law all mixed up but am curious as to your response.
Now this is an interesting idea - I'll have to think about it.
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joey_the_ox
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Re: Augustinians and War

Post by joey_the_ox »

Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:47 pm If there were no humans who were willing to restrain evil, God could probably bring plagues like he did in the OT that would kill off the bad people like he did in Egypt, but as long as there are humans who are willing to restrain evil, God uses/ordains them. This is how he protects the righteous and allows his kingdom to expand and grow.
Ernie, if one of these humans willing to restrain evil came up to you and asked if they should be willing to restrain evil, what would you tell them?
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Ernie

Re: Augustinians and War

Post by Ernie »

joey_the_ox wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:54 pm
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:47 pm If there were no humans who were willing to restrain evil, God could probably bring plagues like he did in the OT that would kill off the bad people like he did in Egypt, but as long as there are humans who are willing to restrain evil, God uses/ordains them. This is how he protects the righteous and allows his kingdom to expand and grow.
Ernie, if one of these humans willing to restrain evil came up to you and asked if they should be willing to restrain evil, what would you tell them?
Plan A - Kingdom A - Living according the law of liberty. Having the law written on people's hearts. Not using coercion or the sword. Calling people from Kingdom B to join Kingdom A.
Plan B - Kingdom B - Taking up the sword, supporting and encouraging those who take up the sword, retributive justice.

I would present to them Plan A and Plan B as I understand it, and tell them that God never wanted there to be a plan B and that it is God's heart that they leave Kingdom B and follow plan A. If they are not willing to follow Plan A, then yes, they should fulfill their role in Kingdom B.
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barnhart
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Re: Augustinians and War

Post by barnhart »

joey_the_ox wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:58 am
I've been thinking about this a bit. In my opinion, Schleitheim is flawed/mistaken. First of all, it doesn't make theological sense to posit this God-ordained authority "outside the perfection of Christ" when Christ Himself said "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
Perhaps the word "ordained" is carrying too much weight. I think of it as "something God uses for his purposes." This category includes famine, plague and earthquakes and other things people have no business supporting.
joey_the_ox wrote: It also seems to be a type of “moral laundering.” If indeed “the sword” has an important role to play in the ordering of society, then taking the Schleitheim position means that one would benefit from this role, but also forever avoid taking any part in it. Speaking in terms of a church that confesses Schleitheim, the flourishing and continued existence of the church in terms of its individual members would seem to be furthered by living in a somewhat just and orderly society, and the order and justice of that society is partially due to members of that society applying “the sword” towards its God-ordained ends ("it punishes and kills the wicked and guards and protects the good", to quote from the confession). But the church, in refusing to have any part in this role, then effectively passes off the “dirty work” from which it benefits to others.
I am not willing to posit coercion and violence are fundamentally ordering society. Human society pre-existed it before the fall and will outlast it when Jesus kingdom comes in fullness. It is a force God has manipulated into a function temporarily much like the way he orchestrated the evil, violent dictator Cyrus to "Shepherd" his people for a time. I'm also not willing to accept the doctrinal position that war and policing produce peace and safety. That hasn't been the experience of many through history, much the opposite. Peace, safety and an ordered society are gifts from the Father.
joey_the_ox wrote: More fundamentally, Schleitheim, or at least the interpretation of Schleitheim that identifies the sword with the "coercive and violent action of the state" seems to be a type of category error. I haven't completely figured out yet how to express this in a way that would make sense from an Anabaptist perspective, but one starting point would be to consider that "the state" in our modern sense is not a fundamental category or a necessary political form. Some have argued that Machiavelli came up with our modern idea of the "state" and some say that is not quite correct - but the point is that "the state" in the sense of "an impersonal form of rule possessing a monopoly of coercive authority within a set territorial boundary" is a modern and historically contingent idea (I pulled the definition from here.) If this point is conceded, it becomes obvious that Schleitheim is not "cutting reality at the joints" and that another formulation may be needed.
I'm not sure I understand this critique, but I would see the SC use of the word "state" as broad enough to encompass all forms of human society.
joey_the_ox wrote: Schleitheim in fact increases the power of the modern liberal state by essentially assenting to the idea that the state has a monopoly on violence (and, in the terms of the confession, a God-ordained monopoly!). It is interesting that the confession does not give the state a monopoly on coercion per se - rather it limits the form of coercion that may be used "inside the perfection of Christ" to the ban.
Possibly, but why assume violence and coercion are the only or most effective methods for forming society. Remember the people who wrote that confession shifted the collective consciousness of the West to the point where freedom of faith and separation of church and state are now considered "rights" by persuasion, not coercion. Modern liberal states would again tremble if the modern church were as "salty" as the 16th century Anabaptists. I feel christians should always maintain a critical, outsider posture to power.
As for the churches use of coersion being limited to the ban, I agree.
Last edited by barnhart on Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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