Immersion, Submersion, and Other Ways of Baptizing

[gcdonner]

I agree with you. I always thought the grape juice thing was more about Menno temperance obsessions than anything biblical. As a teenager I probably would have been more intrigued with the whole thing had they actually been using wine. I’m just relaying the Mennonite Church tradition I experienced, not expressing my approval. Using one cup would probably have been a step too far though given some of the old sick people we had in our church.

As for baptism. I did that so long ago I really don’t remember much of the details. I do note though, that elaborate submersion baptism is becoming more of a thing in some evangelical churches. They really go all out. So perhaps that trend is turning back too and Mennos might pick that up too like so many other friends they have absorbed from the evangelical world. I have a cousin who was a minister at a CMC church and noticed shots of full immersion river baptisms on their facebook page so perhaps it is becoming more common.

I was brought up Conservative Baptist...that means theologically conservative, not "liberal", LOL They always used grape juice and little squares of Wonder Bread... After I got born again and started really digging into scripture more, I realized that the "elements" were missing the symbolism that they were intended to represent. If I am the one offering communion, I use wine and matzos, ie, unleavened bread. The symbolism is of the blood of Jesus and his unleavened/sinless body for sacrifice. The wine is the cup of suffering that he bore for us (think of the Garden of Gethsemane), the "bitter cup". I came to understand the concept of the "real presence" similar to what the Lutherans follow, but I think in a more real way than even they do. Everything that is a part of our faith functions only through our faith in God. Apart from our faith these symbols are nothing more than crackers and juice for coffee break, or to put it even more crassly, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and a glass of milk.
Immersion is the same thing. It is a matter of following the example set by the first disciples who were Jews (as was Jesus) and had a good understanding of purification/sanctification, not just on your head, but the whole person. I understand the necessities of exceptions, but sadly we end up making the exceptions the rules and therefore make the Word of God of none effect by our traditions.
I won't help anyone here to see my point, unless they really want to. I have just left a church because of their teaching on oneness. I thought I could overlook it and did for a couple of years, but every time I read passages in the NT that clearly defined a difference between the Father and the Son, my conscience was pricked. Nice people, and I'm sure they think I am an heretic, but it won't be the first time for other reasons over the years.
Sorry for the rant and the bunny trails.

[Sudsy]

I was a deacon once in a church first called 'Bible Baptist' which, when I first attended was a very closed Calvinist doctrine church. At first, sitting under some Calvinist teachings was hard for me. Shortly after my attending an MB brother left the MB church and joined us as their focus on evangelism had pretty much died out. Seems like this is quite common in Mennonite churches of sorts from what I have observed. Anyway, my family background was very evangelistic and the Pentecostal church I was raised in had also lost much of it's evangelistic fervor.

This MB brother began to have a big impact on our Baptist pastor as he shared his evangelism enthusiasm even though we had our early debates with the pastor on areas such as premill and eternal security beliefs. Then that pastor 'caught fire' and began to preach the Gospel, giving altar calls and getting the congregation into reaching the lost in our city. People began to get born again and believers from all over the city, from various churches, who also understood the early church were soul winners, came to join us. Soul winning courses, home prayer and bible studies, steady flow of immersions, folks going off to bible schools, etc. What a great time !!!

Well, long story short, we changed the church name to ''The New Testament Church in the Twentieth Century' and I suspect other churches thought we were far from representing that title for various reasons. And as representing all the early practises of the NT church, we were, no doubt, different. I think many of the more 'conservative' type churches today would think they are more NT looking than we were. However, God did a marvelous work in filling this church with many unchurched converts as 'winning souls' and 'making disciples' became top priorities. The experience of those years were very special in my life.

We do have a couple of the many Mennonite churches in our area that would still regard themselves as evangelical minded. However, most don't seem to have any church growth outside of having babies and most are not very welcoming to non-Mennonite background people.

All this to say, if I am going to follow an early NT church pattern, then evangelism and growing a local church in numbers would seem to me to be paramount in being a Kingdom believer. Bring others to this Kingdom. So much time and effort is given to trying to get everyone thinking the same on subjects other than the new birth and how best to reach the lost, that it is easy for me to wander from from the core of the NT emphasis of seeing souls saved from eternal separation from God.

Much talk is now about how we must take 'not forgetting the assembling of ourselves' in a local church during this pandemic. Perhaps, at least the same amount of time, should be discussed on how we reach the lost. Where are the charts on how many are dying each day without even hearing the Gospel ? Where are the polls with options on how we go about doing that ? We need revival, myself included !!!! We have strayed so far from thinking with an eternal perspective and are caught up with earthy, temporal concerns that if anything, will chase people away when they see the quarreling we do over things like baptism, politics, etc.

My last say for the day, , I believe the answer to my 'worldliness' is to pursue walking in the Spirit and not in my or anyone else's intelligence. Once I really grasp my need for the Holy Spirit in my life on a moment-by-moment basis and humbly give Him control, I know my perspectives change to what He sees as important. But we won't be forced by Him and He is in us to empower us to not give way to our flesh/ego. There, my Sunday sermon. I think I'll start a thread for this.

[gcdonner]

I was a deacon once in a church first called 'Bible Baptist' which, when I first attended was a very closed Calvinist doctrine church. At first, sitting under some Calvinist teachings was hard for me. Shortly after my attending an MB brother left the MB church and joined us as their focus on evangelism had pretty much died out. Seems like this is quite common in Mennonite churches of sorts from what I have observed. Anyway, my family background was very evangelistic and the Pentecostal church I was raised in had also lost much of it's evangelistic fervor.

This MB brother began to have a big impact on our Baptist pastor as he shared his evangelism enthusiasm even though we had our early debates with the pastor on areas such as premill and eternal security beliefs. Then that pastor 'caught fire' and began to preach the Gospel, giving altar calls and getting the congregation into reaching the lost in our city. People began to get born again and believers from all over the city, from various churches, who also understood the early church were soul winners, came to join us. Soul winning courses, home prayer and bible studies, steady flow of immersions, folks going off to bible schools, etc. What a great time !!!

Well, long story short, we changed the church name to ''The New Testament Church in the Twentieth Century' and I suspect other churches thought we were far from representing that title for various reasons. And as representing all the early practises of the NT church, we were, no doubt, different. I think many of the more 'conservative' type churches today would think they are more NT looking than we were. However, God did a marvelous work in filling this church with many unchurched converts as 'winning souls' and 'making disciples' became top priorities. The experience of those years were very special in my life.

We do have a couple of the many Mennonite churches in our area that would still regard themselves as evangelical minded. However, most don't seem to have any church growth outside of having babies and most are not very welcoming to non-Mennonite background people.

All this to say, if I am going to follow an early NT church pattern, then evangelism and growing a local church in numbers would seem to me to be paramount in being a Kingdom believer. Bring others to this Kingdom. So much time and effort is given to trying to get everyone thinking the same on subjects other than the new birth and how best to reach the lost, that it is easy for me to wander from from the core of the NT emphasis of seeing souls saved from eternal separation from God.

Much talk is now about how we must take 'not forgetting the assembling of ourselves' in a local church during this pandemic. Perhaps, at least the same amount of time, should be discussed on how we reach the lost. Where are the charts on how many are dying each day without even hearing the Gospel ? Where are the polls with options on how we go about doing that ? We need revival, myself included !!!! We have strayed so far from thinking with an eternal perspective and are caught up with earthy, temporal concerns that if anything, will chase people away when they see the quarreling we do over things like baptism, politics, etc.

My last say for the day, , I believe the answer to my 'worldliness' is to pursue walking in the Spirit and not in my or anyone else's intelligence. Once I really grasp my need for the Holy Spirit in my life on a moment-by-moment basis and humbly give Him control, I know my perspectives change to what He sees as important. But we won't be forced by Him and He is in us to empower us to not give way to our flesh/ego. There, my Sunday sermon. I think I'll start a thread for this.

Thanks, I needed that.

[Ken]

We do have a couple of the many Mennonite churches in our area that would still regard themselves as evangelical minded. However, most don't seem to have any church growth outside of having babies and most are not very welcoming to non-Mennonite background people.

The churches I grew up around fit this description to a T.

In fact, pretty much all of their "evangelism" seemed deliberately designed NOT to bring in any new members or converts. For example, one year my youth group was tasked with passing out religious tracts at the local county fair. But the religious tracts were utterly generic and had no contact information for our specific church. The church would sometimes fund billboards with evangelical messages but again, no specific contact information for our church. Folks would sometimes also go into the city to pass out literature and "witness" but again, no contact information should anyone want more information. Except maybe some generic 800 number to a different larger organization. They went through the motions of evangelism because it was a duty, but not in any sort of serious way. You aren't going to grow unless you make serious efforts to bring new people into your church. But there was this typical Mennonite attitude that we were somehow of a more serious and devout people than most and that it "wasn't for everyone" and that leading by example while remaining "quiet in the land" was sufficient witness. It works in communities with large existing populations of Mennonites. Not so much in communities outside the zones of 19th and early 20th Century Mennonite settlement. I doubt that anyone can point to a single large Mennonite church that is not located in a historic Mennonite community of some sort. Small ones here and there in college towns and larger cities that have absorbed some migration of younger Mennonites to the cities. But no big Mennonite churches outside of Menno-land where ethnic Mennonites have historically settled. I'd like to be proven wrong in this.

[Neto]

We do have a couple of the many Mennonite churches in our area that would still regard themselves as evangelical minded. However, most don't seem to have any church growth outside of having babies and most are not very welcoming to non-Mennonite background people.

The churches I grew up around fit this description to a T.

In fact, pretty much all of their "evangelism" seemed deliberately designed NOT to bring in any new members or converts. For example, one year my youth group was tasked with passing out religious tracts at the local county fair. But the religious tracts were utterly generic and had no contact information for our specific church. The church would sometimes fund billboards with evangelical messages but again, no specific contact information for our church. Folks would sometimes also go into the city to pass out literature and "witness" but again, no contact information should anyone want more information. Except maybe some generic 800 number to a different larger organization. They went through the motions of evangelism because it was a duty, but not in any sort of serious way. You aren't going to grow unless you make serious efforts to bring new people into your church. But there was this typical Mennonite attitude that we were somehow of a more serious and devout people than most and that it "wasn't for everyone" and that leading by example while remaining "quiet in the land" was sufficient witness. It works in communities with large existing populations of Mennonites. Not so much in communities outside the zones of 19th and early 20th Century Mennonite settlement. I doubt that anyone can point to a single large Mennonite church that is not located in a historic Mennonite community of some sort. Small ones here and there in college towns and larger cities that have absorbed some migration of younger Mennonites to the cities. But no big Mennonite churches outside of Menno-land where ethnic Mennonites have historically settled. I'd like to be proven wrong in this.

The percentage of people with Mennonite heritage in the MB congregation in which I grew up is probably now around 20%. One of the pastors is from Mennonite background, the other (3 or so) were all brought in "from the outside". But the congregation has also lost nearly everything that would define it as "Mennonite Brethren". (Also, some of those with "Mennonite heritage" are from "mixed marriages", and from far enough back that some of the children from these "inter-racial" marriages are now in their 70's.) (I tried to find the current membership, but didn't find anything like that. I don't know what you would classify as 'large', but I'm going to guess that membership runs around 400 or more.)

[Ken]

We do have a couple of the many Mennonite churches in our area that would still regard themselves as evangelical minded. However, most don't seem to have any church growth outside of having babies and most are not very welcoming to non-Mennonite background people.

The churches I grew up around fit this description to a T.

In fact, pretty much all of their "evangelism" seemed deliberately designed NOT to bring in any new members or converts. For example, one year my youth group was tasked with passing out religious tracts at the local county fair. But the religious tracts were utterly generic and had no contact information for our specific church. The church would sometimes fund billboards with evangelical messages but again, no specific contact information for our church. Folks would sometimes also go into the city to pass out literature and "witness" but again, no contact information should anyone want more information. Except maybe some generic 800 number to a different larger organization. They went through the motions of evangelism because it was a duty, but not in any sort of serious way. You aren't going to grow unless you make serious efforts to bring new people into your church. But there was this typical Mennonite attitude that we were somehow of a more serious and devout people than most and that it "wasn't for everyone" and that leading by example while remaining "quiet in the land" was sufficient witness. It works in communities with large existing populations of Mennonites. Not so much in communities outside the zones of 19th and early 20th Century Mennonite settlement. I doubt that anyone can point to a single large Mennonite church that is not located in a historic Mennonite community of some sort. Small ones here and there in college towns and larger cities that have absorbed some migration of younger Mennonites to the cities. But no big Mennonite churches outside of Menno-land where ethnic Mennonites have historically settled. I'd like to be proven wrong in this.

The percentage of people with Mennonite heritage in the MB congregation in which I grew up is probably now around 20%. One of the pastors is from Mennonite background, the other (3 or so) were all brought in "from the outside". But the congregation has also lost nearly everything that would define it as "Mennonite Brethren". (Also, some of those with "Mennonite heritage" are from "mixed marriages", and from far enough back that some of the children from these "inter-racial" marriages are now in their 70's.) (I tried to find the current membership, but didn't find anything like that. I don't know what you would classify as 'large', but I'm going to guess that membership runs around 400 or more.)

Yes, but you are talking Holmes County right?

How many 400 member Mennonite churches of any flavor are located outside of any region that wasn't a focus of Mennonite settlement in the 19th Century or before. A single one? By contrast there are 400 member Mormon churches all over the place, many of them new or newish. And there are large community churches popping up all over the place. Dozens of them near my house probably that are all over 400 members.

Here on the west coast there are dozens of small Mennonite churches that are largely a legacy of Mennonite settlement in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as Mennonite farmers settled in the Willamette Valley and a few other areas like Fresno. But I don't think any of them have grown much at all in the past 100 years or so and most I think have shrank. Despite the fact that the population has probably grown ten-fold since that time.

[Neto]

The churches I grew up around fit this description to a T.

In fact, pretty much all of their "evangelism" seemed deliberately designed NOT to bring in any new members or converts. For example, one year my youth group was tasked with passing out religious tracts at the local county fair. But the religious tracts were utterly generic and had no contact information for our specific church. The church would sometimes fund billboards with evangelical messages but again, no specific contact information for our church. Folks would sometimes also go into the city to pass out literature and "witness" but again, no contact information should anyone want more information. Except maybe some generic 800 number to a different larger organization. They went through the motions of evangelism because it was a duty, but not in any sort of serious way. You aren't going to grow unless you make serious efforts to bring new people into your church. But there was this typical Mennonite attitude that we were somehow of a more serious and devout people than most and that it "wasn't for everyone" and that leading by example while remaining "quiet in the land" was sufficient witness. It works in communities with large existing populations of Mennonites. Not so much in communities outside the zones of 19th and early 20th Century Mennonite settlement. I doubt that anyone can point to a single large Mennonite church that is not located in a historic Mennonite community of some sort. Small ones here and there in college towns and larger cities that have absorbed some migration of younger Mennonites to the cities. But no big Mennonite churches outside of Menno-land where ethnic Mennonites have historically settled. I'd like to be proven wrong in this.

The percentage of people with Mennonite heritage in the MB congregation in which I grew up is probably now around 20%. One of the pastors is from Mennonite background, the other (3 or so) were all brought in "from the outside". But the congregation has also lost nearly everything that would define it as "Mennonite Brethren". (Also, some of those with "Mennonite heritage" are from "mixed marriages", and from far enough back that some of the children from these "inter-racial" marriages are now in their 70's.) (I tried to find the current membership, but didn't find anything like that. I don't know what you would classify as 'large', but I'm going to guess that membership runs around 400 or more.)

Yes, but you are talking Holmes County right?

How many 400 member Mennonite churches of any flavor are located outside of any region that wasn't a focus of Mennonite settlement in the 19th Century or before. A single one? By contrast there are 400 member Mormon churches all over the place, many of them new or newish. And there are large community churches popping up all over the place. Dozens of them near my house probably that are all over 400 members.

Here on the west coast there are dozens of small Mennonite churches that are largely a legacy of Mennonite settlement in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as Mennonite farmers settled in the Willamette Valley and a few other areas like Fresno. But I don't think any of them have grown much at all in the past 100 years or so and most I think have shrank. Despite the fact that the population has probably grown ten-fold since that time.

No, not Holmes County. North East Oklahoma, Tulsa & Washington Counties. My great grandfather lead the beginning of a small settlement there in around 1913. In the years that followed, many of the original settlers moved away, because the climate is too wet for the customary (at that time) farming methods. Those who stayed either switched to dairy, or took employment in the city. (Others left the MB church for non-Mennonite denominations, or left Christ all together.) So yes, there was a settlement there, but it was very small. (Also, although there have possibly been church plants by the MB church since I moved to Ohio in 1983, there were at that time no MB congregations east of the Mississippi River, except for a conference of 8 congregations in the Carolinas, which was born of a ministry of the Krimmer Mennonite Brethren church, which joined with the MB church in around 1964.)

[mennonitemom1]

Archeology shows us that there were baptismals…. And there were very large pools with steps on each end that they walked in and walked out as it was so that they were starting over when they came out the other side

[JimFoxvog]

I have no issue with whether a swimming pool or sauna is used but I do think appropriate dress should be required. Getting baptised in a bikini does not seem appropriate.

We need to be aware that "appropriate dress" is culturally determined. Originally bikinis were daringly erotic. In that context, it would be quite inappropriate. I recently came back from being treated to a vacation in Jamaica. I saw hundreds (thousands?) of people in bikinis, including often the more daring thong style. Just what most women wore on the beach and nothing eye-turning or erotic about it.

Baptism is ritual bathing. The early church required the same "outfit" that was required for ritual bathing among the Jews. That would not be culturally appropriate most places today.

[Josh]

Or much later than the early church; this is an artist's impression of the baptism of the Kievans in 998:



The Eastern Orthodox church continues to perform naked baptisms (and trine immersion baptisms as well), although on the rare occasion they baptise an adult, the person can wear a bit of attire.

Roman Catholics curiously enough will baptise their infants in unique baptismal garments which aren't used for any other occasion.

It is an open question why departing the historic "mode" of baptism has been found to be acceptable, particularly by strict immersionists.