Immersion, Submersion, and Other Ways of Baptizing

[Ernie]

Brethren, Baptists, Churches of Christ and others talk a lot about the importance of immersion baptism. (The older Brethren folks like to talk about their full commitment, baptism being always in season, the blessing of God, etc. in breaking ice to get baptized.)
None of these groups seem to think much of the flexibility or the directives given in the Didache. "“And concerning baptism, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

When I go online, one of the definitions for immersion is:
"baptism by immersing a person bodily (but not necessarily completely) in water."

I contend that what the Brethren and Baptists really mean is "submersion", but they use the word "immersion" instead. I've seen videos and written statements explaining that the body needs to be fully under the water and that it needs to be redone if some part of the body doesn't go under the surface of the water.

So I am wondering if the immersionists on MN are submersionists or whether it is not important to you that all the body goes under the water.

Also wondering if you would acknowledge an "immersion by pouring" baptism (lots of water all over the person) as being legitimate, or whether the act of dunking in the water or under the surface of the water is what makes it legitimate.

[Sudsy]

Brethren, Baptists, Churches of Christ and others talk a lot about the importance of immersion baptism. (The older Brethren folks like to talk about their full commitment, baptism being always in season, the blessing of God, etc. in breaking ice to get baptized.)
None of these groups seem to think much of the flexibility or the directives given in the Didache. "“And concerning baptism, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

When I go online, one of the definitions for immersion is:
"baptism by immersing a person bodily (but not necessarily completely) in water."

I contend that what the Brethren and Baptists really mean is "submersion", but they use the word "immersion" instead. I've seen videos and written statements explaining that the body needs to be fully under the water and that it needs to be redone if some part of the body doesn't go under the surface of the water.

So I am wondering if the immersionists on MN are submersionists or whether it is not important to you that all the body goes under the water.

Also wondering if you would acknowledge an "immersion by pouring" baptism (lots of water all over the person) as being legitimate, or whether the act of dunking in the water or under the surface of the water is what makes it legitimate.

I use the word 'immersion' speaking of my baptism in water and it likely is better described as 'submersion'. When water baptism is practised in the MB church I attended, the person baptised went totally under water. To me, this best represents what Paul identified as dying and being buried (like totally put under the ground) and rising to new life when one comes up and out of the water. With this understanding of what this act symbolizes, then full submersion does that.

Is that important to me, to go fully under water ? I prefer the symbol that what happened when I became a Christian was that I died and was buried as a sinner and was resurrected to new life in Christ. The modes of pouring and sprinkling portraying the washing away of sins does not symbolize that death, burial and resurrection image but if a believer is portraying that Christ has washed away their sins by this public act or testimony, to me, it is still a testimony before men that the new birth has occurred and I think this is what is most important. What is not 'legitimate' is being baptised in water and not being firstly born again / baptised in the Spirit..

Much debate has been made over mode of water baptism and what part it might play in salvation. What is interesting to me is that little is said, at least in my experience, that Peter baptised in Jesus name and not as most baptise according to what Jesus said to do in Mathew 28:19. I find some explanations for this unconvincing. Does this ever make you wonder why Peter preached baptism this way ?

[joey_the_ox]

Also wondering if you would acknowledge an "immersion by pouring" baptism (lots of water all over the person) as being legitimate, or whether the act of dunking in the water or under the surface of the water is what makes it legitimate.

In what sense can baptism be "legitimate" or "not legitimate"?

[joey_the_ox]

What is interesting to me is that little is said, at least in my experience, that Peter baptised in Jesus name and not as most baptise according to what Jesus said to do in Mathew 28:19. I find some explanations for this unconvincing. Does this ever make you wonder why Peter preached baptism this way?

The Oneness Pentecostals baptize in this way.

[Sudsy]

What is interesting to me is that little is said, at least in my experience, that Peter baptised in Jesus name and not as most baptise according to what Jesus said to do in Mathew 28:19. I find some explanations for this unconvincing. Does this ever make you wonder why Peter preached baptism this way?

The Oneness Pentecostals baptize in this way.

Yes and this is one of their supporting scriptures for believing Peter and the other apostles did not believe in the Trinity. In other words the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit referred to in Matthew 28:19 is 'Jesus'. Peter got it right. We who believe in the Trinity got it wrong. In the UPC they will re-baptise by submersion in Jesus name if a Christian was first baptised according to Mathew 28:19.

[Neto]

Merriam-Webster (on-line version)

Definition of immerse
transitive verb

1: to plunge into something that surrounds or covers
especially : to plunge or dip into a fluid

and that is what I thought - they are the same thing. But why are there two words then? (I do not know. One on-line source said that 'submerse' is a voluntary action, that is, one carried out independently, or without any outside agent.)

I recall a baptism in an MB church where as the pastor tipped the person back, she lost her footing and one foot stuck up out of the water. She was concerned, because she wasn't positive that she had been completely under the water at any one moment during the baptism. The pastor wisely told her that it didn't matter - that it was a spiritual experience based on her decision to be completely surrendered to Christ. (At least I think that was a wise response.)

I'll try not to get carried away here, and there are those here who differ with me on this. Some do believe that only immersion completely fulfills the 'requirements' of baptism. And I respect that. It is basically how I was taught, at least up until the time when the MB conferences began to accept people who had been baptized in faith by some other form. But as a linguist, I will just say that you cannot always determine the meaning of a word by discovering its etymological origin - the meaning of the sum or the definitions of its parts. The etymological meaning of the Greek word does fairly clearly allow for only one form - that of full immersion. But there are places in the NT Scripture where the same word is used in a context that does not suggest full immersion; that suggest, in fact, that the meaning of the word at that time was more like 'to cleanse', or 'to wash'. This is the meaning I chose in the Banawa translation. It is possible that in some future revision it will be changed, but the major pressure would be to just "obscurize" it by transliterating it, as was done in English, Portuguese, and possibly nearly all major languages of the world. I also think that it is easier to understand some spiritual meaning with the starting point being "washing" than it is for someone to make the mental leap to a figure of death & resurrection. Also, there are texts which speak of "sprinkling by His blood", which clearly connect to the OT ceremony through which not only people, but the utensils of sacrifice & worship were consecrated - made holy toward God.

[Ernie]

Also wondering if you would acknowledge an "immersion by pouring" baptism (lots of water all over the person) as being legitimate, or whether the act of dunking in the water or under the surface of the water is what makes it legitimate.

In what sense can baptism be "legitimate" or "not legitimate"?

I think most believers' baptism advocates would say that an insincere baptism or commitment to Christ is not legitmate and a person should be rebaptized if they want to follow Jesus. In this thread I am trying to learn if there are things other than insincerity or infant baptism that some churches believe deligitimizes their baptism and requires rebaptism. (I know of some churches that require a correct understanding of baptism, but I don't know of any denominations presently that require this. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.)

It is my observation that the strongest "immersionists" think a person's baptism is illigitimate and should be rebaptized if they were not immersed, trine immersed, fully submerged, baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, baptized in the name of Jesus, baptized by a particular segment of the Church, etc.

[Ernie]

The etymological meaning of the Greek word does fairly clearly allow for only one form - that of full immersion.

Could the word submersion be used in place of full immersion.

also think that it is easier to understand some spiritual meaning with the starting point being "washing" than it is for someone to make the mental leap to a figure of death & resurrection. Also, there are texts which speak of "sprinkling by His blood", which clearly connect to the OT ceremony through which not only people, but the utensils of sacrifice & worship were consecrated - made holy toward God.

Which texts? Is sprinkling ever likened to baptism in the NT?

[Ernie]

Much debate has been made over mode of water baptism and what part it might play in salvation.

At my baptism the bishop began his message by saying that the mode of baptism is not really important. Then he spent the next 45 minutes explaining why Mennonites pour. This meeting was fairly influential for a Baptist friend of ours who attended my baptism and was considering joining our church. She was not very impressed and I'm not sure she attended much after this.

[Sudsy]

Much debate has been made over mode of water baptism and what part it might play in salvation.

At my baptism the bishop began his message by saying that the mode of baptism is not really important. Then he spent the next 45 minutes explaining why Mennonites pour. This meeting was fairly influential for a Baptist friend of ours who attended my baptism and was considering joining our church. She was not very impressed and I'm not sure she attended much after this.

I have never heard the rational for pouring but I will look into it. This subject reminds me somewhat of the controversy over what is a headcovering.

Here is a link below more of what I was raised to believe and the biblical support given. The conclusion was stated as ' In Conclusion, it is clear that Biblical baptism requires all the following: "water," "much water," "coming to the water," "going doing into the water," "coming up out of the water," "burial," "resurrection," and "washing the body." Most of the water baptisms when I was a youth was done in Lake Erie and sometimes it was pretty difficult to time the waves correctly. I have no issue with whether a swimming pool or sauna is used but I do think appropriate dress should be required. Getting baptised in a bikini does not seem appropriate.

https://www.mapministry.org/articles/20 ... -immersion