Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

[nett]

Try again please.

I said that if I were a employer, I would probably require testing and masking for people who are not vaccinated in any face-to-face setting. You asked me to provide evidence, this evidence is convincing to me. In general, I really would follow the public heath recommendations during a pandemic. It may not convince you, but it does convince me.

Back to the topic of this thread - I think we are all a bit off because of the pandemic and because so many things are different and not what we want. But I don't think this is a "mark of the beast" thing, neither testing nor face masks nor vaccines seem like a good candidate for that. They don't rhyme with this:

And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads. On its horns were ten crowns, and on its heads were blasphemous names. The beast I saw was like a leopard, its feet were like a bear’s, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. The dragon gave the beast his power, his throne, and great authority. One of its heads appeared to be fatally wounded, but its fatal wound was healed.

The whole earth was amazed and followed the beast. They worshiped the dragon because he gave authority to the beast. And they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to wage war against it?”

The beast was given a mouth to utter boasts and blasphemies. It was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. It began to speak blasphemies against God: to blaspheme his name and his dwelling—those who dwell in heaven. And it was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. It was also given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation. All those who live on the earth will worship it, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

Vaccines don't seem to be the key to the surveillance state, either. The QR codes simply provide a way to look up a website, and the World Wide Web is the key to the surveillance state. You are giving up all kinds of information to the Web every day you use it. The Who is tracking me on my devices thread goes into this. I could keep adding things to that thread for a very long time.

So you got nothing, good to know.

[Bootstrap]

So you got nothing, good to know.

I disagree. I think I gave you links that provide a great deal of backing for face masks and testing, your one-liner doesn't convince me. But you are welcome to your opinion, we don't HAVE to convince each other. And it's not the topic of this thread.

[Robert]

Everyone on MD and MN have, at one time or another, been victimised by BS. He has never apologised and yet demands apologies of others. The archives are replete with the evidence of his behaviors over the years. Most of BSs aggressive behaviors occurred in the politics forum. When others left the politics forum, BS brought those self-same behaviors over to other forums and continued.

I genuinely think there is a time to Biblically correct these behaviors as they occur and publicly (as indicated by Scriptures) when evidence over a number of years indicates no change to the said behaviors. You, Josh, Robert, GK, and a number of others have done so following the Biblical format through the years. Please do not feel that you are the perpetrator here. You are not.

This is an exaggerated post. EVERYONE is a big target and it does use very strong and harsh language. It does not really help the conversations. If it was done in PM, then it would be an opinion between two people. When posted publicly, it is unfair and targets one. It makes statements that forces the attacked party to be defensive. The post takes truths and projects them out further than they should fairly be taken. Lets try better.

[nett]

So you got nothing, good to know.

I disagree. I think I gave you links that provide a great deal of backing for face masks and testing, your one-liner doesn't convince me. But you are welcome to your opinion, we don't HAVE to convince each other. And it's not the topic of this thread.

You sidestepped my question, so I will assume you don't have an answer.

[Bootstrap]

I disagree. I think I gave you links that provide a great deal of backing for face masks and testing, your one-liner doesn't convince me. But you are welcome to your opinion, we don't HAVE to convince each other. And it's not the topic of this thread.

You sidestepped my question, so I will assume you don't have an answer.

I disagree, I don't think this is sidestepping. And I don't think you have responded substantively to what I have already provided. You may disagree, but I think this is evidence for face masks and testing.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... -cov2.html

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 21261726v1

https://covsim.hosted-wordpress.oit.ncs ... mbined.pdf

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33431650/

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/f ... le/2776536

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

Regardless, I do think it would be helpful to actually discuss the subject of this thread.

[nett]

I disagree, I don't think this is sidestepping. And I don't think you have responded substantively to what I have already provided. You may disagree, but I think this is evidence for face masks and testing.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... -cov2.html

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 21261726v1

https://covsim.hosted-wordpress.oit.ncs ... mbined.pdf

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33431650/

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/f ... le/2776536

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

Regardless, I do think it would be helpful to actually discuss the subject of this thread.

Not a single one of those articles examines masking policy, and whether it has an affect on the factors I mentioned. It's somewhat obvious that if you study a population that is hyper-compliant about face-masks, social distancing and other measures, that you will find a reduction of those factors. However, most people are not capable of being hyper-compliant about masking. The general population tends to wear lousy cloth masks, touch their masks a lot, pull them down when they shouldn't etc etc.

This why, prior to COVID, it was established medical consensus that masks were not appropriate for the general public in preventing respiratory virus spread.

There is nothing different about COVID, the bureaucratic culture shifted, and the bureaucracy needed to show that it was doing "something" in order to justify it's existence. As I've explained before, as a statistician, I can show whatever the funding party is asking.

What do you think Andrew Hill meant when he said

Unitaid has a say in the conclusions of the paper. Yeah.

While he was being grilled by Dr. Tess Lawrie about why he had abruptly shifted his stance on IVT's efficacy?

What do you think he meant by this?

I think fundamentally, we’re reaching the [same] conclusion about the survival benefit. We’re both finding a significant effect on survival.

What do you think he meant by this?

Lawrie: Could you please give me a name of someone in Unitaid I could speak to, so that I can share my evidence and hope to try and persuade them to understand it?

Hill: Oh, I’ll have a think about who to, to offer you with a name … but I mean, this is very difficult because I’m, you know, I’ve, I’ve got this role where I’m supposed to produce this paper and we’re in a very difficult, delicate balance …

Lawrie: Who are these people? Who are these people saying this?

Hill: Yeah … it’s a very strong lobby …

Really, none of this is new. Rome fell because it's managerial state collapsed under it's own weight, and the same is happening the US.

At some point, you're going to have to stop stumping for a failed bureaucracy. you're getting increasingly ridiculous with the things you try to defend. You'll notice quite a few people here have expressed that sentiment. Maybe you should think about why.

[Falco Underhill]

Vaccines don't seem to be the key to the surveillance state, either. The QR codes simply provide a way to look up a website, and the World Wide Web is the key to the surveillance state. You are giving up all kinds of information to the Web every day you use it.

1. The QR codes enables businesses to track your online history whether you volunteer personal information or not. Your phone has an id number that can be automatically accessed when you click on a QR code and your online history can be gleaned from that with or without your explicit consent.

2. More importantly to me is how central bank digital currency may come into play. You can make purchases by using a QR code. If digital currency becomes the norm every business transaction you make will be recorded by the state. Your taxes will be removed automatically. This could have huge consequences.

3. Then there's the whole potential for a social credit system like China's. The government could theoretically prevent you from buying anything that's socially unacceptable, and who's to define what that is?

.

[Bootstrap]

It's somewhat obvious that if you study a population that is hyper-compliant about face-masks, social distancing and other measures, that you will find a reduction of those factors. However, most people are not capable of being hyper-compliant about masking. The general population tends to wear lousy cloth masks, touch their masks a lot, pull them down when they shouldn't etc etc.

You asked what I would do if I were an employer. If I were an employer, I would have some control over that, I could specify KF94, N95, or KN95, I could make sure people where them properly. Your question shifts this to the general population. I just came back from visiting relatives in San Diego on a flight where we were required to mask. Most people on that flight seemed to be wearing effective masks. I think that probably does make a difference.

If I were an employer, I would want to make room for people who have religious exemptions to vaccines, perhaps by changing roles, perhaps by allowing remote work, requiring masking and testing in situations where people would be face to face. In this situation, I would be able to enforce rules. This would make it easier for me to accommodate people who have religious objections to vaccines.

All of this is hypothetical. There are, in fact, a few people I could fire, they are vaccinated and they work remotely. But I would not disapprove of an employer who did the things I suggest above.

[nett]

It's somewhat obvious that if you study a population that is hyper-compliant about face-masks, social distancing and other measures, that you will find a reduction of those factors. However, most people are not capable of being hyper-compliant about masking. The general population tends to wear lousy cloth masks, touch their masks a lot, pull them down when they shouldn't etc etc.

You asked what I would do if I were an employer. If I were an employer, I would have some control over that, I could specify KF94, N95, or KN95, I could make sure people where them properly. Your question shifts this to the general population. I just came back from visiting relatives in San Diego on a flight where we were required to mask. Most people on that flight seemed to be wearing effective masks. I think that probably does make a difference.

If I were an employer, I would want to make room for people who have religious exemptions to vaccines, perhaps by changing roles, perhaps by allowing remote work, requiring masking and testing in situations where people would be face to face. In this situation, I would be able to enforce rules. This would make it easier for me to accommodate people who have religious objections to vaccines.

All of this is hypothetical. There are, in fact, a few people I could fire, they are vaccinated and they work remotely. But I would not disapprove of an employer who did the things I suggest above.

So your hypothetical mandate would not include cloth masks. What about eating and drinking, people pulling their masks down, touching their masks, not replacing them frequently enough?

You continue to be invested in a narrative that just doesn't have any answers.

[Bootstrap]

Vaccines don't seem to be the key to the surveillance state, either. The QR codes simply provide a way to look up a website, and the World Wide Web is the key to the surveillance state. You are giving up all kinds of information to the Web every day you use it.

1. The QR codes enables businesses to track your online history whether you volunteer personal information or not. Your phone has an id number that can be automatically accessed when you click on a QR code and your online history can be gleaned from that with or without your explicit consent.

2. More importantly to me is how central bank digital currency may come into play. You can pay by using a QR code. If digital currency becomes the norm every business transaction you make will be recorded by the state. Your taxes will be removed automatically. This would have huge consequences.

3. Then there's the whole potential for a social credit system like China's. The government could theoretically prevent you from buying anything that's socially unacceptable, and who's to define what that is?

Yes, these are the real threats. Which is what that other thread is about.

These threats were there before the pandemic, QRs and bar codes have existed for a long time. Most people share a whole lot of information just using their cell phones in a typical day, making purchases, leaving their geo-tracking on. Connect that to digital currency, bring in a government like China's, and you get a real nightmare scenario.

But what do vaccines add to this? Not much, I think, at least in most places. Austria is one place to watch, with their vaccine mandate, they have indeed been taking measures beyond what other Western democracies have been willing to do, with random checks and fines simply for not being vaccinated. I don't know if they have any religious exemptions. I would be shocked if even Austria would make it impossible for people to buy groceries or medicines, their lockdowns have so far provided ways to do that.