Interested in learning about Holdemans

[Ernie]

Are these observations accurate?

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... ize_8.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... ition.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... ative.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... inion.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... ptism.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... hurch.html

[Neto]

I do not know how accurate his comments are, but it is my impression that while the Church of God in Christ Mennonite started here in Ohio from Swiss Brethren background people, that the majority of the current membership who have ethnic ties to early anabaptists are actually of Dutch Mennonite background. He touches on the "one true church" issue several times, and the related concept of fellowshipping with people from other anabaptist groups, and having visiting ministers speak from those other groups. This was probably the second most critical difference between my own background (MB - Mennonite Brethren) and the "big church" in the colonies in the Russian Empire. The Kliene Geminde had separated earlier, and my Dad explained the hard feelings between them and the MBs to me once, but now I cannot remember what all of the issues were. But the "openness" to outsiders on the part of the MBs was one factor in this. Both groups were formed in an attempt to deal with the rampant immorality in the main Mennonite church in the colonies, but their approaches were quite different. The KGs formed strict rules; the MBs sought deeper spiritual life, willingly fellowshipping with Christians of other persuasions, even outside the larger Mennonite fold. But both were seeking to restore the early Dutch Mennonite emphasis on the essentiality of a "pure Church". To my understanding, the KG church has descended into a formalism which allows the same spiritual coldness, and the MB church has, to a large extent, lost its anabaptist convictions & moorings, "falling away" into 'Evangelicalism". Where is the middle road?

[Josh]

The MBs in California are dealing with congregations that want to fully affirm homosexuality. That's obviously not a good path to go down.

[Josh]

Are these observations accurate?

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... ize_8.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... ition.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... ative.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... inion.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... ptism.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... hurch.html

I would say somewhat accurate at least for his talk about dress codes - there is no global, uniform dress code. It happens at a congregation by congregation level or at a national level.

Generally speaking, Holdemans are much less focused on clothes than other Anabaptist groups (but are similar to Apostolic Christians), although they are gradually becoming more like other plain groups.

For example, 75 years ago, headcoverings were often not worn outside of Sunday and there was no consistent style. 120 years ago, women's dresses were identical to what non-Holdeman neighbours wore.

This is a persistent difference between Holdemans and other plain groups.

[Neto]

The MBs in California are dealing with congregations that want to fully affirm homosexuality. That's obviously not a good path to go down.

I hadn't heard that, but I certainly agree.

[Neto]

Are these observations accurate?

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... ize_8.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... ition.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... ative.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... inion.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... ptism.html

https://belizemennonites.blogspot.com/2 ... hurch.html

I would say somewhat accurate at least for his talk about dress codes - there is no global, uniform dress code. It happens at a congregation by congregation level or at a national level.

Generally speaking, Holdemans are much less focused on clothes than other Anabaptist groups (but are similar to Apostolic Christians), although they are gradually becoming more like other plain groups.

For example, 75 years ago, headcoverings were often not worn outside of Sunday and there was no consistent style. 120 years ago, women's dresses were identical to what non-Holdeman neighbours wore.

This is a persistent difference between Holdemans and other plain groups.

The Old Order Amish (I guess that's what they should be called - I mean before the New order were formed), 75 years ago also did not wear covering during the week. (At least judging from the few pictures my wife's parents had from before they married, and soon after. This would have been the late 40's and early 50's.)

[mercysfree]

Neto said:
The Old Order Amish (I guess that's what they should be called - I mean before the New order were formed), 75 years ago also did not wear covering during the week. (At least judging from the few pictures my wife's parents had from before they married, and soon after. This would have been the late 40's and early 50's.)
[/quote]

This assertion seemed strange, so I confirmed with a couple of elderly friends who grew up Old Order. It is not accurate for church members, at least in Northern Indiana and Lancaster, PA. There are a couple of possibilities for those photos. Possibly the woman was not a church member, or they were being bad (since they were taking pictures anyway) or the strings of the covering were flipped behind, which was the custom during the week, but from the front that makes a Kapp less observable.

But back to Holdermans, my mother grew up in the 1920s and 30s in an Oklahoma community where her family was one of two that were not Mennonite. Everyone else went to a COGCM or MB church. She said the Holdermans there wore plain clothing and coverings, but the MB "looked like us." I have a picture of schoolgirls and cannot tell which church the other students were from.

[Josh]

Neto said:
The Old Order Amish (I guess that's what they should be called - I mean before the New order were formed), 75 years ago also did not wear covering during the week. (At least judging from the few pictures my wife's parents had from before they married, and soon after. This would have been the late 40's and early 50's.)

This assertion seemed strange, so I confirmed with a couple of elderly friends who grew up Old Order. It is not accurate for church members, at least in Northern Indiana and Lancaster, PA. There are a couple of possibilities for those photos. Possibly the woman was not a church member, or they were being bad (since they were taking pictures anyway) or the strings of the covering were flipped behind, which was the custom during the week, but from the front that makes a Kapp less observable.

But back to Holdermans, my mother grew up in the 1920s and 30s in an Oklahoma community where her family was one of two that were not Mennonite. Everyone else went to a COGCM or MB church. She said the Holdermans there wore plain clothing and coverings, but the MB "looked like us." I have a picture of schoolgirls and cannot tell which church the other students were from.
[/quote]

That wound be interesting since Holdemans never adopted plain suits or cape dresses. In the 20s and 30s covering styles varied widely from congregation to congregation. I can’t remember exactly when they switched from white to black, but it was sometime around then.

[mercysfree]

Neto said:
The Old Order Amish (I guess that's what they should be called - I mean before the New order were formed), 75 years ago also did not wear covering during the week. (At least judging from the few pictures my wife's parents had from before they married, and soon after. This would have been the late 40's and early 50's.)

This assertion seemed strange, so I confirmed with a couple of elderly friends who grew up Old Order. It is not accurate for church members, at least in Northern Indiana and Lancaster, PA. There are a couple of possibilities for those photos. Possibly the woman was not a church member, or they were being bad (since they were taking pictures anyway) or the strings of the covering were flipped behind, which was the custom during the week, but from the front that makes a Kapp less observable.

But back to Holdermans, my mother grew up in the 1920s and 30s in an Oklahoma community where her family was one of two that were not Mennonite. Everyone else went to a COGCM or MB church. She said the Holdermans there wore plain clothing and coverings, but the MB "looked like us." I have a picture of schoolgirls and cannot tell which church the other students were from.

That wound be interesting since Holdemans never adopted plain suits or cape dresses. In the 20s and 30s covering styles varied widely from congregation to congregation. I can’t remember exactly when they switched from white to black, but it was sometime around then.
[/quote]

I'm not sure exactly what adults wore, and I doubt my mom meant cape dresses or she would have said so; she just thought they looked (her word) "Dutchy" which she used a lot to mean plain or frumpy, like a dress being "Dutchy long." As I said, all the schoolgirls in my pic look the same to me.

[Neto]

Neto said:
The Old Order Amish (I guess that's what they should be called - I mean before the New order were formed), 75 years ago also did not wear covering during the week. (At least judging from the few pictures my wife's parents had from before they married, and soon after. This would have been the late 40's and early 50's.)

This assertion seemed strange, so I confirmed with a couple of elderly friends who grew up Old Order. It is not accurate for church members, at least in Northern Indiana and Lancaster, PA. There are a couple of possibilities for those photos. Possibly the woman was not a church member, or they were being bad (since they were taking pictures anyway) or the strings of the covering were flipped behind, which was the custom during the week, but from the front that makes a Kapp less observable.

But back to Holdermans, my mother grew up in the 1920s and 30s in an Oklahoma community where her family was one of two that were not Mennonite. Everyone else went to a COGCM or MB church. She said the Holdermans there wore plain clothing and coverings, but the MB "looked like us." I have a picture of schoolgirls and cannot tell which church the other students were from.
[/quote]

They were church members. My father-in-law's dad kept renting more land and buying more cattle to qualify for the increasingly high numbers necessary to keep him from going into the service (WWII). Finally he couldn't do it anymore, and my F-I-L was drafted. But he had to join the church to keep from going into the regular military. They (my parents-in-law) "dated" for something like 6 or 7 years, because of all of the uncertainty. They were the ones who told me this, but they're both gone now, so I cannot ask again. He said more than once that he had some resentment about being forced to get baptized and join the church earlier than what he wanted to, because he loved baseball, and liked to go up to Cleveland to see a game sometimes. Couldn't do that after joining the church. (My F-I-L died a year ago last September, at 99. He was born in June of 1921.) Anyway, no big deal. Maybe it was just like that here in Holmes County.)