Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

General Christian Theology
Bootstrap

Re: Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

Post by Bootstrap »

Back to conspiracy theories.

The basic approach of conspiracy theories is this: set it up as "us" versus "them", "they" are out to get "us", and truth is about whose side you are on, not about facts. Josh is doing that here:
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:24 pmConflating eating normal food to using vaccines directly developed using testing on stem cells is ridiculous, but it continues to show your complete lack of respect for people like myself who don't believe abortion is OK.
Back to facts. I am against abortion. The Catholic Church is against abortion. I have quoted resources from pro-Life Catholic scholars who have researched this and concluded that babies are not being aborted in order to produce vaccines. So I repeat:
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:19 pmNo reliable source I can find says that babies are being aborted in order to produce vaccines. That's not pretending, that's looking at the available evidence. If you have better evidence, please bring it. Let's not let build a culture of conspiracy theory and false accusation.
I think the culture of conspiracy theory and false accusation is really harming our Christian witness. It makes us look stupid and ugly. So let's not do that.
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:24 pm Wrong again. Cell lines as recent as 1995 are also used (PER.C6). So, yes, you're perpetrating falsehood when you claim "nobody has been aborted since the 1970s".
Josh, I never said that.

And let's face it, what you are doing here is distracting attention from the article I cited, written by pro-Life Catholic scholars who have looked into it, without addressing the facts it provides. Insulting, emotional one-liners aren't facts. If you have facts, please provide them. I think that's the way to show respect for the truth.
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Falco Underhill
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:30 pm
Affiliation: Hermit

Re: Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

Post by Falco Underhill »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:04 pm This article reinforces something I keep saying: convenience is what is driving people to give up privacy, and most of this has nothing to do with vaccines.
I agree.
Imagine carrying just about everything you need beneath the surface of your hand - your wallet, keys and ID, all in a microchip. That’s reality in Sweden, as some early-adopters implant the tiny devices beneath their skin.
The technologies you worry about are being developed, but not because of vaccines. Some people would just rather not worry about where their car keys are and like the convenience of paying more easily. That's the same reason people use cell phones that leak all kinds of personal data, they like Google maps, digital payments, browsing and buying things with a hand-held device, texting, etc. If you worry about privacy and what could be done with your personal information, vaccines aren't the most interesting thing to worry about. What people are doing with your cell phone data is.
Vaccines may only be a part of the slippery slope towards a beast system insofar as they can be mandated. The mandates have made contactless business transactions a necessity. That's the key to what may ultimately become the beast system.
I don't think cell phones are the mark of the beast either. But if we do get significant persecution in this country, cell phone data can be used against us in ways vaccines cannot.
Did you read the New York Times article I linked to you before? It explains how QR Codes at restaurants and retail can be used to open websites so whatever information you give can be entered there and then your offline behavior can be tracked just like your online behavior.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/26/tech ... cking.html

Excerpt from the article
QR Codes Are Here to Stay. So Is the Tracking They Allow.

Fueled by a desire for touchless transactions, QR codes popped up everywhere in the pandemic. Businesses don’t want to give them up.

QR codes — essentially a kind of bar code that allows transactions to be touchless — have emerged as a permanent tech fixture from the coronavirus pandemic. Restaurants have adopted them en masse, retailers including CVS and Foot Locker have added them to checkout registers, and marketers have splashed them all over retail packaging, direct mail, billboards and TV advertisements. ....

But the spread of the codes has also let businesses integrate more tools for tracking, targeting and analytics, raising red flags for privacy experts. That’s because QR codes can store digital information such as when, where and how often a scan occurs. They can also open an app or a website that then tracks people’s personal information or requires them to input it. ....

“People don’t understand that when you use a QR code, it inserts the entire apparatus of online tracking between you and your meal,” said Jay Stanley, a senior policy analyst at the American Civil Liberties Union. “Suddenly your offline activity of sitting down for a meal has become part of the online advertising empire.”
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Soloist

Re: Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

Post by Soloist »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:50 pm Back to conspiracy theories.

The basic approach of conspiracy theories is this: set it up as "us" versus "them", "they" are out to get "us", and truth is about whose side you are on, not about facts. Josh is doing that here:
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:24 pmConflating eating normal food to using vaccines directly developed using testing on stem cells is ridiculous, but it continues to show your complete lack of respect for people like myself who don't believe abortion is OK.
Back to facts. I am against abortion. The Catholic Church is against abortion. I have quoted resources from pro-Life Catholic scholars who have researched this and concluded that babies are not being aborted in order to produce vaccines. So I repeat:
So.. where is your proof that food products use fetal cells? sounds like truth isn't your focus.


I don't believe that we need concrete to build a concrete building. Show me the proof that we need concrete to build a concrete building.

Boot... the very design and process requires fetal cells. If no abortion existed, they would have to use a different route thus a baby was aborted to do this. Your argument is based purely on motivation of a past abortion aka the woman alone. Let us try this for example since you did it...

HEK-293 is used to produce artificial meat like actually in the construction of the cells as an essential building block for the cell's life. The statement is proved but I don't care to try and justify it to you because its a side point.
Are you fine eating lab produced meat that is grown using "cloned" cells from a baby dead over 40 years ago? its not a baby anymore the pro cell use camp says.

You produce a statement saying many food products are using HEK-293 but then argue that we are not producing proof of the vaccines being dependent on it through your quasi logic. These pro-life Catholic scholars also have other pro-life scholars holding our view so who cares for your statement as we can produce our own. There is a terrible evil going on with current age abortions using fresh fetal tissue to graft into mice and you can hand wave it away by saying the abortion wasn't done for that. The Jews were not killed for the science so as they continue to be chopped up and gassed you are fine benefiting from it. Same argument you are using.
This is a us versus them and the them is you.
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:19 pmNo reliable source I can find says that babies are being aborted in order to produce vaccines. That's not pretending, that's looking at the available evidence. If you have better evidence, please bring it. Let's not let build a culture of conspiracy theory and false accusation.
I think that you defending the practice to benefit from abortion is flat out unchristian and is abhorrent.
I think the culture of conspiracy theory and false accusation is really harming our Christian witness. It makes us look stupid and ugly. So let's not do that.
Okay, so Josh looks stupid and ugly? you are accepting your prolonging of life on abortion... thats pretty ghastly.
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:24 pm Wrong again. Cell lines as recent as 1995 are also used (PER.C6). So, yes, you're perpetrating falsehood when you claim "nobody has been aborted since the 1970s".
Josh, I never said that.

And let's face it, what you are doing here is distracting attention from the article I cited, written by pro-Life Catholic scholars who have looked into it, without addressing the facts it provides. Insulting, emotional one-liners aren't facts. If you have facts, please provide them. I think that's the way to show respect for the truth.
Every single time I've quoted Catholics on the other side of this supposed "pro-life" camp you ignore them so why should we respond to some random Catholic opinion?
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Bootstrap

Re: Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

Post by Bootstrap »

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:29 pm Vaccines may only be a part of the slippery slope towards a beast system insofar as they can be mandated. The mandates have made contactless business transactions a necessity. That's the key to what may ultimately become the beast system.
I don't think cell phones are the mark of the beast either. But if we do get significant persecution in this country, cell phone data can be used against us in ways vaccines cannot.
Did you read the New York Times article I linked to you before? It explains how QR Codes at restaurants and retail can be used to open websites so whatever information you give can be entered there and then your offline behavior can be tracked just like your online behavior.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/26/tech ... cking.html
Yes, I did.

Excerpt from the article
QR Codes Are Here to Stay. So Is the Tracking They Allow.

!!! SNIP !!!

“People don’t understand that when you use a QR code, it inserts the entire apparatus of online tracking between you and your meal,” said Jay Stanley, a senior policy analyst at the American Civil Liberties Union. “Suddenly your offline activity of sitting down for a meal has become part of the online advertising empire.”
Basically, if you choose to open up a website on your cellphone using a QR, you are now browsing the web, and all the ways they can track you if you use the web from your cellphone are now available to them. The elephant in the room is that the web is already set up to gather this information, and does so when you do normal browsing.
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Bootstrap

Re: Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

Post by Bootstrap »

Soloist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:13 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:50 pm Back to conspiracy theories.

The basic approach of conspiracy theories is this: set it up as "us" versus "them", "they" are out to get "us", and truth is about whose side you are on, not about facts. Josh is doing that here:
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:24 pmConflating eating normal food to using vaccines directly developed using testing on stem cells is ridiculous, but it continues to show your complete lack of respect for people like myself who don't believe abortion is OK.
Back to facts. I am against abortion. The Catholic Church is against abortion. I have quoted resources from pro-Life Catholic scholars who have researched this and concluded that babies are not being aborted in order to produce vaccines. So I repeat:
So.. where is your proof that food products use fetal cells? sounds like truth isn't your focus.
On the contrary, truth is very much my focus. And as far as I know, babies are not being killed in order to make vaccines. If that's not true, then it's vivid emotional falsehood, used for emotional effect.

This was your claim in this thread. So instead of calling each other liars, let's focus on establishing what the facts are. And let's keep this simple: do you have evidence that babies are being aborted in order to produce the Covid-19 vaccines that are in use today? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no". If I'm wrong, please produce it.

I believe we both know that the HEK293 cells are from the 1970s, long before any of the current Covid-19 vaccines. And that no cells from aborted babies are present in the vaccines or used in the testing, these are cells derived from a baby who died more than 50 years ago. Since we are doing truth here, could you please say, yes or no, if these two things are true? If not, please provide direct evidence that they are false. While we're at it, I believe these babies were not aborted in order to contribute their cells to science. Do you have evidence that they were? Yes or no?

As for your question about food, I quoted the article above:
How widely used are HEK293 cells? They are commonly used for testing processed foods produced by companies such as Kraft, Nestlé, Cadbury and others. Indeed, the great majority of processed/packaged food products available for sale in the United States are likely to contain ingredients produced or tested in HEK293 cells.
I provided that with a link. They are my only source, I have not done research on this myself. I provided a link and quoted from it in order to make my source obvious. We can evaluate that claim together too.
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Soloist

Re: Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

Post by Soloist »

Your Catholic source... lets analysis it shall we? You try doing the same. Pick out the lies here on this first page and read the rest to broaden your understanding
https://mailchi.mp/7742dd12483f/stateme ... conscience
https://www.crisismagazine.com/2021/def ... -with-evil
https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploa ... nhagen.pdf
https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploa ... ponse1.pdf
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/cong ... ae_en.html
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/cong ... id_en.html
The past year of suffering under the onslaught of COVID-19 has brought with it numerous ethical questions, and the advent of effective vaccines for COVID is no different. Foremost among the questions for those of us who are committed to defending the intrinsic equal dignity of all human beings from conception to natural death are these: in accepting any of the vaccines on offer, is one in any way endorsing or contributing to the practice of abortion, or is one in any way showing disrespect for the remains of an unborn human being?
given the practice has grown, the answer to this is yes it is endorsing and contributing to the practice.
While there is a technical causal linkage between each of the current vaccines and prior abortions of human persons, we are all agreed, that connection does not mean that vaccine use contributes to the evil of abortion or shows disrespect for the remains of unborn human beings. Accordingly, Catholics, and indeed, all persons of good will who embrace a culture of life for the whole human family, born and unborn, can use these vaccines without fear of moral culpability.
This isn't even what the Vatican has said for the official position, either way this is what they are setting out to prove.
Common to the four major vaccines, produced by Moderna, Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, and AstraZeneca is some use of “immortalized” human cell lines. Ordinarily, cells taken from a body have a limited life span, undergoing only a fixed number of cell divisions before they arrest and die. For ongoing research, scientists prefer to use a “cell line,” or a population of cells derived from a single source that has been modified (typically by some form of genetic mutation) to divide indefinitely in culture. Such “immortalized” cell lines allow scientists to conduct many experiments on cells that are both genetically identical and routinely available in the laboratory.
This is false and I have pointed this out several times before but I'll leave you with this research article on China's new cell line to prove my statement. https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploa ... nceDoc.pdf
It is true that we have many immortalized adult cell lines and most of them due to cancer.
HEK293 is one such commonly used line.[1] The name “HEK” stands for “human embryonic kidney,” and “293” refers to the 293rd experiment conducted by the scientist who produced the cell line. The embryonic kidney cells were originally obtained from the remains of a deceased unborn child following what appears to be an elective abortion that took place in the Netherlands during the early 1970s. The exact circumstances of the abortion are not known, but the scientists producing the cell line were not directly involved and, crucially, the abortion was not performed for the sake of providing biological materials to researchers.
The scientist responsible for developing HEK293 testified in congress responding to some of these claims and he definitely was directly involved.
https://wayback.archive-it.org/7993/201 ... 0t1_01.pdf
HEK293 cells are particularly susceptible to the introduction of foreign DNA, and they rapidly became a standard scientific workhorse, that is widely used by both basic scientists and by industry. Although there are currently many modified versions of HEK293s that optimize these cells for specific purposes, all of the HEK293 cells available around the world today were derived from the remains of a single unborn child that was aborted a half a century ago. Importantly, there is no ongoing use of aborted tissue to generate HEK293 cells, to modify these cells, or to maintain them in the laboratory. Thus, the use of HEK293 (and similar immortalized lines) does not create future incentives for more abortions.
Also not without risks, specifically though, only a few versions of HEK-293 have been immortalized and carry some risks, see https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ ... .29116.oxg
How widely used are HEK293 cells? They are commonly used for testing processed foods produced by companies such as Kraft, Nestlé, Cadbury and others. Indeed, the great majority of processed/packaged food products available for sale in the United States are likely to contain ingredients produced or tested in HEK293 cells.
https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploa ... ctsall.pdf

Feel free to produce facts to prove the statements they make, I don't disagree that this is a possibility but no proof exists because there would be backlash against these companies as what happened with Pepsi.
They are also used as an alternative to animal testing in the cosmetic and pharmaceutical industry. And their use in biomedical research is ubiquitous and has contributed to an enormous number of new medications and medical procedures developed over the last several decades. It thus seems fair to say that in addition to the use of HEK293 cells by the scientific community, nearly every person in the modern world has consumed food products, taken medications or used cosmetics/personal care products that were developed through the use of HEK293 cells in the food, biomedical and cosmetic industries.
To which the majority of people have been ignorant of. Its only been in the last 20 years that the FDA documents for approval are reaching the reach of the commoner.
The various vaccines have made different uses of the HEK293 cell line, with Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca using them for manufacture, Pfizer and Moderna for testing only. But these differences are irrelevant to the following questions:

Do any of the vaccines make more use than others of the mortal remains of unborn children from whom the cell lines were derived? The answer is no; as a matter of scientific fact, no fetal “body parts” are present in these immortal cell lines. The immortal cell lines are artifacts—biological products that have been modified and reproduced many times over, and they do not retain the natural function of the tissue from which they were derived. They are not “body parts” in any meaningful or morally relevant sense.
Johnson & Johnson uses PER-C6.
Of course there are no body parts in the vaccine... lets not be ridiculous. However, the fetal cell lines contain the DNA from the baby killed and still retain the function they were originally created for. Otherwise why bother identifying the organ the cells derived from?
The baby when aborted requires to hold the use of digoxin for quality of cells and requires the cells as fresh as possible leading to live dissection of some specimens for cell line production. https://www.catholicworldreport.com/202 ... ch-part-2/
multiple links at bottom of page to actual proof documents.
Does the production and use of any of the vaccines contribute to, cooperate with, or promote any abortion? Again, the answer is no, for the abortions from which cell lines such as HEK293 were derived happened decades ago, and no further fetal tissue is used or needed for the maintenance of these lines.
Factually true, but try taking away fetal research being dependent on fresh abortions. Try halting the practice at any point and there is substantial pushback.
Common to all pro-life witness is recognition that the apparent elective abortion that led to the derivation of the HEK293 cell line was morally impermissible and involved the unjust taking of a human life. But to repeat, the HEK293 cell line currently used around the globe in scientific research and those like it do not contain the remains of any human being and so its use does not show disrespect for human remains, any more than the contemporary use of products, such as roads or train lines, that were constructed by unjustly enslaved human beings, or use of land unjustly taken, shows disrespect for those victims in the distant past.
So what are the cells then? How can it not possibly be human cells and thus remains of a human unless its not human cells which no professional would ever argue. The past slaves argument I could accept if we stopped further development and research dependent on fetal cells. As far as it goes, this person I'm sure has a smart phone and plenty of items made by slaves.
To be perfectly clear, we are not saying that people are justified in using and promoting these vaccines because the great goods they provide offset the evil of appropriating a prior wicked action. Rather, we believe that there is no such impermissible cooperation or appropriation here. The attenuated and remote connection to abortions performed decades ago and the absence of any incentive for future abortions offer little if any moral reasons against accepting this welcome advance of science.
The Vatican doesn't agree with this statement, see above links.

The rest of the article doesn't really say anything new.

Your turn Boot.

https://mailchi.mp/7742dd12483f/stateme ... conscience
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Bootstrap

Re: Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

Post by Bootstrap »

Soloist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:13 pm Boot... the very design and process requires fetal cells. If no abortion existed, they would have to use a different route thus a baby was aborted to do this. Your argument is based purely on motivation of a past abortion aka the woman alone.
If I get a heart transplant with a heart from a shooting victim, does that mean that the victim was shot in order to produce a heart for me? No. This person would have been shot whether or not I needed a heart transplant. That's important to thinking through the ethics.

You might still be unwilling to accept a heart from such a victim, but it's important to get the facts straight first before discussing the ethics. I might be willing to accept this heart, but unwilling to have someone shot for my benefit. That would be a very different ethical question.
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Soloist

Re: Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

Post by Soloist »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:04 pm
On the contrary, truth is very much my focus. And as far as I know, babies are not being killed in order to make vaccines. If that's not true, then it's vivid emotional falsehood, used for emotional effect.
Again your quasi logic.
This was your claim in this thread. So instead of calling each other liars, let's focus on establishing what the facts are. And let's keep this simple: do you have evidence that babies are being aborted in order to produce the Covid-19 vaccines that are in use today? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no". If I'm wrong, please produce it.
I've never claimed a baby was aborted today to make the Covid-19 vaccine. The baby is aborted today to make X-vaccine in 20 years.
I believe we both know that the HEK293 cells are from the 1970s, long before any of the current Covid-19 vaccines. And that no cells from aborted babies are present in the vaccines or used in the testing, these are cells derived from a baby who died more than 50 years ago. Since we are doing truth here, could you please say, yes or no, if these two things are true? If not, please provide direct evidence that they are false. While we're at it, I believe these babies were not aborted in order to contribute their cells to science. Do you have evidence that they were? Yes or no?
Has there been any testing to prove your statement? should be pretty easy to prove its not a baby cell by genetic testing. https://wayback.archive-it.org/7993/201 ... 0t1_01.pdf
As for your question about food, I quoted the article above:
How widely used are HEK293 cells? They are commonly used for testing processed foods produced by companies such as Kraft, Nestlé, Cadbury and others. Indeed, the great majority of processed/packaged food products available for sale in the United States are likely to contain ingredients produced or tested in HEK293 cells.
I provided that with a link. They are my only source, I have not done research on this myself. I provided a link and quoted from it in order to make my source obvious. We can evaluate that claim together too.
Okay so its false then. Its a random claim by a random person with no factual proof. Feel free to provide proof or admit the author made an assumption for propaganda purposes.
If I get a heart transplant with a heart from a shooting victim, does that mean that the victim was shot in order to produce a heart for me? No. This person would have been shot whether or not I needed a heart transplant. That's important to thinking through the ethics.

You might still be unwilling to accept a heart from such a victim, but it's important to get the facts straight first before discussing the ethics. I might be willing to accept this heart, but unwilling to have someone shot for my benefit. That would be a very different ethical question.
The situation though is that the people are already shot wholesale and saved ready to be implanted in you when you need it. Same thing.
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Bootstrap

Re: Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

Post by Bootstrap »

Soloist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:11 pm Your turn Boot.
OK. But I'm going to stick with the original question - are babies being aborted in order to produce vaccines? I still think the answer is "no". Here's one place where I think you address this directly, implying something that I would like to see more evidence for:
Soloist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:11 pm
Common to the four major vaccines, produced by Moderna, Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, and AstraZeneca is some use of “immortalized” human cell lines. Ordinarily, cells taken from a body have a limited life span, undergoing only a fixed number of cell divisions before they arrest and die. For ongoing research, scientists prefer to use a “cell line,” or a population of cells derived from a single source that has been modified (typically by some form of genetic mutation) to divide indefinitely in culture. Such “immortalized” cell lines allow scientists to conduct many experiments on cells that are both genetically identical and routinely available in the laboratory.
This is false and I have pointed this out several times before but I'll leave you with this research article on China's new cell line to prove my statement. https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploa ... nceDoc.pdf
It is true that we have many immortalized adult cell lines and most of them due to cancer.
Are any cell lines newer than HEK293 (early 1970s) and PER.C6 (1985) used in the manufacture or production of Moderna, Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, or AstraZenica? I had the impression they are not.

China is a different story.
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ken_sylvania

Re: Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

Post by ken_sylvania »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:12 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:13 pm Boot... the very design and process requires fetal cells. If no abortion existed, they would have to use a different route thus a baby was aborted to do this. Your argument is based purely on motivation of a past abortion aka the woman alone.
If I get a heart transplant with a heart from a shooting victim, does that mean that the victim was shot in order to produce a heart for me? No. This person would have been shot whether or not I needed a heart transplant. That's important to thinking through the ethics.

You might still be unwilling to accept a heart from such a victim, but it's important to get the facts straight first before discussing the ethics. I might be willing to accept this heart, but unwilling to have someone shot for my benefit. That would be a very different ethical question.
If a guy killed one of his children and then offered to donate the organs, would you accept? After all, he was going to kill the child whether or not you would accept one of the child's organs.
If something like this were to happen society would be outraged and rightly so. Why shouldn't we be equally outraged when a mother chooses to have her unborn child killed and donated for scientific research?
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