Coronavirus Outbreak

[Robert]

Ignore the commercial half way through. I just clicked the feed bar in the video forward a few minutes and skipped it.

[Josh]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/13/us/p ... hcare.html

The Supreme Court on Monday refused to block New York’s requirement that health care workers be vaccinated against the coronavirus even when they cite religious objections.

As is often the court’s practice in rulings on emergency applications, its unsigned order included no reasoning. But Justice Neil M. Gorsuch filed a 14-page dissent saying that the majority had betrayed the court’s commitment to religious liberty.

In his dissent on Monday in the case from New York, Justice Gorsuch wrote that the practical consequences of the court’s decision would be grave.

“Thousands of New York health care workers face the loss of their jobs and eligibility for unemployment benefits,” he wrote.

“These applicants are not ‘anti-vaxxers’ who object to all vaccines,” Justice Gorsuch added. “Instead, the applicants explain, they cannot receive a Covid-19 vaccine because their religion teaches them to oppose abortion in any form, and because each of the currently available vaccines has depended upon abortion-derived fetal cell lines in its production or testing.”

“The Free Exercise Clause protects not only the right to hold unpopular religious beliefs inwardly and secretly,” he wrote. “It protects the right to live out those beliefs publicly.”

In an emergency application asking the Supreme Court to intercede, the health care workers’ lawyers wrote that the requirement “imposes an unconscionable choice on New York health care workers: abandon their faith or lose their careers and their best means to provide for their families.”

Barbara D. Underwood, New York’s solicitor general, responded that the state did not allow a religious exemption for its longstanding requirements for measles and rubella. The medical exemption for the vaccination requirement, she added, was “tightly constrained in both scope and duration,” making very few people eligible for it.

Consistency ruined these claims. If this was challenged back with Measles and Rubella then they might have had a leg to stand on. I would personally say if someone had a religious objection to fetal cell derived vaccines they would have left a while back. That being said, perhaps some came to their convictions more recently and they will either compromise, move to a state and facility favorable to them or find a new career.

I’ve never been compelled to get an MMR vaccine and never have chosen to get one. Back when I was getting childhood vaccines, they weren’t involved with foetal cell lines.

But yes, the time has passed for people of conviction to object to just covid vaccines. The only path forward now is to reluctantly join forces with the anti-vaccine crowd and oppose all vaccines.

[Soloist]

I’ve never been compelled to get an MMR vaccine and never have chosen to get one. Back when I was getting childhood vaccines, they weren’t involved with foetal cell lines.

But yes, the time has passed for people of conviction to object to just covid vaccines. The only path forward now is to reluctantly join forces with the anti-vaccine crowd and oppose all vaccines.

I'm not ready to take that stance yet. I think I hold the view that the Catholics at COG are holding as well as this Catholic doctor https://catholicfamilynews.com/blog/202 ... lie/#_edn1

That being said, I'm leaning more and more towards faith for possible healing then faith in modern medicine. Time will tell if this resistance to fetal cell/tissue use will actually change anything or if it will quietly go away again after covid. Suffice to say, my line of 1980 will continue to be my general stance and I'll continue to be selective in the medications and vaccines I use. One I found the other day was actually tested on WI-38...

[silentreader]

Let's keep it simple. What are the rates of Covid-19 infection in the country as a whole for vaccinated people? For unvaccinated people? This page answers that question:

https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/me ... .pdf?la=en
See Table 1 but looks like 63,000 total breakthrough cases, with almost 22,000 after "fully protected" Total cases in Ontario looks like 629,000. The problem is that the total cases was from prior to the vaccine being available. To properly compare you would need parallel data with set points.

Israel has done this and generally their data has been pretty good. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... .full-text Comparing data sets from equal dates of unvaccinated compared to vaccinated.

Meanwhile the CDC says "we are not tracking covid positives for vaccinated" Our data sucks due to things like this. Regardless of if hospitals are covering things up or not, if we don't know the actual rates of positive vaccinated we don't know the breakthrough rates. If we don't compare unvaccinated to vaccinated by same time of date through same period, we don't know accurate protection that the vaccine gives.
There is enough smoke going around that there is a high probability of some coverup. How much? who knows and I doubt we will ever know. I trust the data coming out of Israel but I don't trust ours.

I've never claimed the vaccine does not provide protection but lets be honest about the data and the flaws found in it.

In Ontario, the differential on Nov. 4th for instance, which was when I first started tracking it personally, was 4.67, that is an unvaccinated person was 4.67 times more likely to become infected than a vaccinated person.
There has been a steady continuing decline in that differential, and yesterday it stood at 3.31. It has been consistently under 4 for 6 days straight. In 4 of the last 6 days the number of new infections has been higher among fully vaccinated then among un-vaccinated.
The differential for hospitalizations is at 13.3 as of Dec. 3, a week ago. I'm guessing that has dropped as well because hospitalization and ICU numbers have been stable or declining among unvaccinated and rising slowly among vaccinated. I think the change is faster than can be accounted for by rising vaccination rates.
Interestingly enough the daily new infections have risen to the same numbers as late May. Roughly 10.5 million people have been fully vaccinated between then and now.

Dec. 11th 38.76% of new infections were among unvaccinated, 53.7% were among fully vaccinated
Differential based on rates was 3.14 Differential based on rates for hospitalizations was 11.5

There was a startling and rapid trend this past week.

Dec. 18th 21.75% of new infections were among unvaccinated, 70.8% of new infections were among fully vaccinated.
Differential based on rates was 1.8 Don't have an updated differential for hospitalizations, but I don't expect it has changed much. Unvaccinated hospitalization number has dropped 16%, vaccinated hospitalization number has risen 11%.
That's for Province of Ontario.

[Soloist]

Dec. 11th 38.76% of new infections were among unvaccinated, 53.7% were among fully vaccinated
Differential based on rates was 3.14 Differential based on rates for hospitalizations was 11.5

There was a startling and rapid trend this past week.

Dec. 18th 21.75% of new infections were among unvaccinated, 70.8% of new infections were among fully vaccinated.
Differential based on rates was 1.8 Don't have an updated differential for hospitalizations, but I don't expect it has changed much. Unvaccinated hospitalization number has dropped 16%, vaccinated hospitalization number has risen 11%.
That's for Province of Ontario.

The obvious first questions someone is going to point out is ratios. How many vaccinated are there and how many unvaccinated? Also ratios have been used misleadingly several times with bold headlines like "children hospitalization from covid up by 500%"
Mind posting a link to the data?

[silentreader]

Dec. 11th 38.76% of new infections were among unvaccinated, 53.7% were among fully vaccinated
Differential based on rates was 3.14 Differential based on rates for hospitalizations was 11.5

There was a startling and rapid trend this past week.

Dec. 18th 21.75% of new infections were among unvaccinated, 70.8% of new infections were among fully vaccinated.
Differential based on rates was 1.8 Don't have an updated differential for hospitalizations, but I don't expect it has changed much. Unvaccinated hospitalization number has dropped 16%, vaccinated hospitalization number has risen 11%.
That's for Province of Ontario.

The obvious first questions someone is going to point out is ratios. How many vaccinated are there and how many unvaccinated? Also ratios have been used misleadingly several times with bold headlines like "children hospitalization from covid up by 500%"
Mind posting a link to the data?

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data?utm_so ... m=referral

[Soloist]

Thanks. Looks like the ratio fits. While the vaccinated have less cases per 100,000 its pretty clear that they are sharply rising while unvaccinated are flattening.

[Dan Z]

Ignore the commercial half way through. I just clicked the feed bar in the video forward a few minutes and skipped it.

I think the data are coming around to the idea that, compared to vaccines, getting sick is the best way to keep from getting sick again...unfortunately, it's also the best way to infect your grandparents, the best way to get sent to a hospital, the best way to be put on a ventilator, and the best way to end up dead.

[Soloist]

I think the data are coming around to the idea that, compared to vaccines, getting sick is the best way to keep from getting sick again...unfortunately, it's also the best way to infect your grandparents, the best way to get sent to a hospital, the best way to be put on a ventilator, and the best way to end up dead.

At this point one needs to consider what we have done with almost every other disease if you are reasonably caring about getting others sick. Don't go see grandma if your child is sick, avoid that immune deficient cousin after you were exposed, stay away from the guy about to get surgery even if its just a cold, don't go to church with coughing children.

The primary issue in our culture is that people are expected to work sick, or go to school as long as there isn't a fever or vomiting. My father would say it was his boss's job to send him home if he was sick and he needed to still go to work.

[Dan Z]

I think the data are coming around to the idea that, compared to vaccines, getting sick is the best way to keep from getting sick again...unfortunately, it's also the best way to infect your grandparents, the best way to get sent to a hospital, the best way to be put on a ventilator, and the best way to end up dead.

At this point one needs to consider what we have done with almost every other disease if you are reasonably caring about getting others sick. Don't go see grandma if your child is sick, avoid that immune deficient cousin after you were exposed, stay away from the guy about to get surgery even if its just a cold, don't go to church with coughing children.

The primary issue in our culture is that people are expected to work sick, or go to school as long as there isn't a fever or vomiting. My father would say it was his boss's job to send him home if he was sick and he needed to still go to work.

This is a very good point Soloist - all along, common sense learned over generations has provided the best course.