Coronavirus Outbreak

[PeterG]

Most jurisdictions keep statistics on hospitalization and death rates for vaccinated and unvaccinated patients. For example, here are the statistics for tiny Holmes County Ohio where some here on MennoNet call home. Current as of this week: https://www.holmeshealth.org/corona-virus-covid-19/

Surely you can find at least one county in the country who’s Covid statistics match your assertions. If what you claim is true then the majority of the country should show higher covid hospitalization and death rates among the vaccinated. I’m just asking you to show us one single county out of the more than 3,000 counties in the US for which that is true. Just one. Can you do it?

Would an entire country suffice?
FGLwzQjVgAAEdx_.png

If I understand correctly, Ken is asking about rates of hospitalization and death due to COVID among vaccinated people as compared to those same rates among unvaccinated people. That graph shows rates of vaccination among COVID cases, hospitalizations, and deaths, which is something completely different.

[Ken]

And I trust my SIL who is an ER nurse, who has ONLY admitted vaccinated patients for COVID for the last two weeks, and has also noted that vaccination status is routinely reported wrong due to EHR limitations, which is very convenient.

Now can we talk about what your beloved scientists said about mutations happening in 3-4 months that should have taken 10x that long?

Most jurisdictions keep statistics on hospitalization and death rates for vaccinated and unvaccinated patients. For example, here are the statistics for tiny Holmes County Ohio where some here on MennoNet call home. Current as of this week: https://www.holmeshealth.org/corona-virus-covid-19/

Surely you can find at least one county in the country who’s Covid statistics match your assertions. If what you claim is true then the majority of the country should show higher covid hospitalization and death rates among the vaccinated. I’m just asking you to show us one single county out of the more than 3,000 counties in the US for which that is true. Just one. Can you do it?

Would an entire country suffice?
FGLwzQjVgAAEdx_.png

Sure. But that graph doesn’t show anything of the sort. It doesn’t show the RATES of hospital admission and death by vaccination status. If the vast majority of the population is vaccinated then you can have higher admissions by by vaccinated while still seeing much lower RATES as a percentage of population. The adult vaccination rate and rate for people over age 60 in the UK is well north of 90%. But then you knew that didn’t you? And you knew that the graph you just posted doesn’t demonstrate anything about comparative hospitalization and death rates between the vaccinated and unvaccinated in the UK.

This is the actual countrywide UK data that you wanted to find but somehow missed: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... tember2021

Bottom line?

• Between 2 January and 24 September 2021, the age-adjusted risk of deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19) was 32 times greater in unvaccinated people than in fully vaccinated individuals.
• The weekly age-standardised mortality rates (ASMRs) for deaths involving COVID-19 were consistently lower for people who had received two vaccinations compared with one or no vaccinations.

[Ken]

So Nett. Have you found any US jurisdictions or even any other countries where the hospitalization rate or death rate among the vaccinated is higher than among the unvaccinated? It should be easy to do if your theories are correct. You should have hundreds of examples.

By the way, this is the actual UK chart you were looking for to provide a comparison of the Covid death rates for vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. This one is from the BBC and dated November 14 so within the past month.

[Ernie]

https://www.erienewsnow.com/story/45414 ... f-covid-19

Some people think that Michael Osterholm would make a better top expert than Dr. Fauci.

[nett]

Most jurisdictions keep statistics on hospitalization and death rates for vaccinated and unvaccinated patients. For example, here are the statistics for tiny Holmes County Ohio where some here on MennoNet call home. Current as of this week: https://www.holmeshealth.org/corona-virus-covid-19/

Surely you can find at least one county in the country who’s Covid statistics match your assertions. If what you claim is true then the majority of the country should show higher covid hospitalization and death rates among the vaccinated. I’m just asking you to show us one single county out of the more than 3,000 counties in the US for which that is true. Just one. Can you do it?

Would an entire country suffice?
FGLwzQjVgAAEdx_.png

Sure. But that graph doesn’t show anything of the sort. It doesn’t show the RATES of hospital admission and death by vaccination status. If the vast majority of the population is vaccinated then you can have higher admissions by by vaccinated while still seeing much lower RATES as a percentage of population. The adult vaccination rate and rate for people over age 60 in the UK is well north of 90%. But then you knew that didn’t you? And you knew that the graph you just posted doesn’t demonstrate anything about comparative hospitalization and death rates between the vaccinated and unvaccinated in the UK.

This is the actual countrywide UK data that you wanted to find but somehow missed: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... tember2021

Bottom line?

• Between 2 January and 24 September 2021, the age-adjusted risk of deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19) was 32 times greater in unvaccinated people than in fully vaccinated individuals.
• The weekly age-standardised mortality rates (ASMRs) for deaths involving COVID-19 were consistently lower for people who had received two vaccinations compared with one or no vaccinations.

That graph isn't age-stratified, but the share of hospitalizations and deaths is higher than the vaccination rate in the country. No matter how you cut it, week 45-48 vaccinated people are now at higher risk of both.

Your cherry picking is noted however.

[nett]

Most jurisdictions keep statistics on hospitalization and death rates for vaccinated and unvaccinated patients. For example, here are the statistics for tiny Holmes County Ohio where some here on MennoNet call home. Current as of this week: https://www.holmeshealth.org/corona-virus-covid-19/

Surely you can find at least one county in the country who’s Covid statistics match your assertions. If what you claim is true then the majority of the country should show higher covid hospitalization and death rates among the vaccinated. I’m just asking you to show us one single county out of the more than 3,000 counties in the US for which that is true. Just one. Can you do it?

Would an entire country suffice?
FGLwzQjVgAAEdx_.png

If I understand correctly, Ken is asking about rates of hospitalization and death due to COVID among vaccinated people as compared to those same rates among unvaccinated people. That graph shows rates of vaccination among COVID cases, hospitalizations, and deaths, which is something completely different.

If the vaccines are effective, vaccinated share of cases and deaths should not be higher than the countries total vaccination rate.

[nett]

So Nett. Have you found any US jurisdictions or even any other countries where the hospitalization rate or death rate among the vaccinated is higher than among the unvaccinated? It should be easy to do if your theories are correct. You should have hundreds of examples.

By the way, this is the actual UK chart you were looking for to provide a comparison of the Covid death rates for vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. This one is from the BBC and dated November 14 so within the past month.

is that all cause? It says within 28 days of a positive test, not COVID confirmed.

Highly vaccinated countries are experiencing COVID outbreak after COVID outbreak, while unvaccinated countries are largeley back to normal.

Why are you chronically unable to look at big picture? I don't need statistics from counties, there is now empirical data, and vaccinated countries are experiencing consistent outbreaks, even though we keep getting optimistic predictions about vaccine results.

I'd rather have Tanzania's results than Denmark's

[Ken]

If the vaccines are effective, vaccinated share of cases and deaths should not be higher than the countries total vaccination rate.

What is this, some new metric you just made up because you can't find any examples of any jurisdictions anywhere in the country where the hospitalization and death rates for the vaccinated are higher than for the unvaccinated? As would be the case if you are correct? In any event, such information would be meaningless if it is not age stratified. As shown on the graph I posted above the rates escalate dramatically with age. And vaccination rates also vary dramatically with age.

You can play any sort of statistical mischief when you start looking at ratios.

For example, take a place that some here are from, Holmes County, OH, which has seen 143 Covid deaths during the course of the pandemic. If 142 of those 143 deaths were white people, can we conclude from that that data that white people are 142-times more likely to die of Covid than black people? That Covid is 142-times more deadly for white people than black people? Statistics don't lie....or do they? Why can't I look at the ratio of white to black deaths in Holmes County and draw conclusions from that information?

Why are you chronically unable to look at big picture? I don't need statistics from counties, there is now empirical data, and vaccinated countries are experiencing consistent outbreaks, even though we keep getting optimistic predictions about vaccine results.

I'm happy to look at any scale of picture that you want. Individual hospitals, individual counties, whole states, whole countries, whole continents, or the entire world. No matter how big or small of a picture you look at the fact remains that hospitalization rates and death rates are far higher for the unvaccinated than the vaccinated.

[nett]

If the vaccines are effective, vaccinated share of cases and deaths should not be higher than the countries total vaccination rate.

What is this, some new metric you just made up because you can't find any examples of any jurisdictions anywhere in the country where the hospitalization and death rates for the vaccinated are higher than for the unvaccinated?

The US isn't tracking cases accurately for vaccinated people. my SIL is an ER nurse, the only way she can know if someone is vaccinated is to ask them or try to find out from their family, which they usually do not do, so yeah. It's not being tracked.

if you don't believe me answer this question.

Why is the US showing better vaccination efficacy than any of the other developed nations that are releasing data? Are we much healthier, don't think so.

You can play any sort of statistical mischief when you start looking at ratios.

So now empirical data is statistical mischief.

For example, take a place that some here are from, Holmes County, OH, which has seen 143 Covid deaths during the course of the pandemic. If 142 of those 143 deaths were white people, can we conclude from that that data that white people are 142-times more likely to die of Covid than black people? That Covid is 142-times more deadly for white people than black people? Statistics don't lie....or do they? Why can't I look at the ratio of white to black deaths in Holmes County and draw conclusions from that information?

I will again repeat myself, we know the TOTAL vaccination rate in the UK, so we can use TOTAL count of cases and deaths. You're acting like the total vaccinated share of the population is a complete unknown.

I understand what you're saying about age stratification, and the idea that older people are more likely to be vaccinated, and therefore older (more vulnerable) people will get sicker and die more when they do get sick.

But that has not been shown to be true, in reality. the more sick cohorts in ALL groups tend to have lower vaccination rates, which should skew the rates in favor of the vaccines.

Instead, we're seeing the trends going the wrong way, vaccinated share of deaths, cases, and hospitalizations is going up much faster than vaccination rates (the mainstream acknowledges this and the problem of waning immunity, apparently you haven't heard...). The attempt to plug the problem with boosters is just going to make things worse.

No matter how big or small of a picture you look at the fact remains that hospitalization rates and death rates are far higher for the unvaccinated than the vaccinated.

I assume you mean OTHER than the graph for the UK at a national level, that shows the exact opposite

Look, your camp has been nothing but wrong, you can keep moving the goalposts, but i think the majority are starting to be done with it.

You told us the vaccines were highly effective
You told us we'd be at herd immunity right now
You told us variants would not develop despite leaky vaccines
You told us that masking and lock-downs would no be necessary
You told us that if you get the vaccine, you won't get COVID
You told us that COVID deaths would go down after the vaccine campaign started
You told us that highly unvaccinated countries would fare the worst

And i believed all this, for quite a while.
I masked.
We sanitized all of our groceries when we got home.
Didn't see family members for months (including keeping anyone from meeting our newborn son).
Didn't attend church
Skipped the funerals of much beloved church members (cancer, not COVID) out of fear

I probably would have vaccinated too...but then we all got COVID, which for me, meant losing my taste and smell, a mild headache, and some brain fog for a week.

After that, I was done. None of it was remotely worth it.

Can you blame me for not taking the narrative serious anymore?

[Ken]

Nett:

The only things I remember telling you was that vaccines reduce your chance of catching Covid and reduce both the risk of hospitalization and death relative to being unvaccinated. They also happen to reduce the severity of the disease when people do get sick, and they reduce the infectiousness of people who do still catch Covid despite being vaccinated.

The fact that you can’t find data from anywhere in the US (or anywhere else in the developed world) showing vaccinated people getting sick or dying at higher rates than unvaccinated is pretty clear and compelling evidence that I’m right.

In my own immediate and extended family, between my wife and me we have four parents who are all in their late 80s, the five of us in my generation are all in our 50s, and we have 3 kids ranging from age 15 to 23 for a total of 12 people across three generations. Several of us work in professions that are at pretty high risk of exposure to Covid. We are all 100% vaccinated and not one person in our extended family has caught covid in the past 2 years. So the results speak for themselves.

None of this is particularly complicated. It is a virus. The science of virology is old and well established. We know how it replicates and spreads and we know how it makes people sick and kills them. We also know there are basic things you can do to prevent getting the disease and prevent it from spreading. The fact that far too many people are in denial about that is why we are where we are today.