Who is tracking me on my devices?

[Falco Underhill]

But that system is already in place - credit cards, the international banking system, the Internet, cell phone tracking. What does vaccination status add that makes a difference?

Proof of vaccines status was necessary for requiring a governmental permission slip to enter businesses, including emoloyers, and therefore to even receive a paycheck. I assume this is/was just kind of an early test run. What the pretext will be for making it permanent I cannot guess.

Do you have specific predictions? And a specific time frame? So we can know if you were right or wrong?

Not really. I'm not making any prophetic claims. Just call it a suspicion. I'll be happy if I'm proven wrong.

[Bootstrap]

But that system is already in place - credit cards, the international banking system, the Internet, cell phone tracking. What does vaccination status add that makes a difference?

Proof of vaccines status is necessary for requiring a governmental permission slip to enter any business, including where you work, and therefore to even receive a paycheck. I assume this is just kind of an early test run. What the pretext will be for making it permanent I cannot guess.

What will be the pretext for making it permanent? I can't imagine one, assuming we get the pandemic under control. And all of your suspicions are passive, they don't say who "they" are, the people who are going to do this to us. I have a hard time imagining a realistic scenario where "they" institute a permanent police state because of vaccines. This may be a good conspiracy theory on the emotional level, but I don't think it's a well-informed one.

But that permanent system is already in place and has been for years - it's called immigration status, and some of the same people who are worrying about vaccine status keep tearing down whatever protections exist there. And the "war on terror" has been used to justify all kinds of civil rights infringements. So has the "war on drugs".

I think the danger of a police state is real, but I think the war on terror, the war on drugs, and the war on immigration are more likely to lead to the things you fear. Especially in the hands of an authoritarian, "no boundaries" leader who we choose to save "us" from "them".

Not really. I'm not making any prophetic claims. Just call it a suspicion. I'll be happy if I'm proven wrong.

OK. Me too. My suspicions lie in different directions.

[Falco Underhill]

I think the danger of a police state is real, but I think the war on terror, the war on drugs, and the war on immigration are more likely to lead to the things you fear. Especially in the hands of an authoritarian, "no boundaries" leader who we choose to save "us" from "them".

First, I wouldn't expect a single authoritarian figure (like Donald J Trump ) to pull this off. More like an international agreement in the name of an emergencies.

Also I don't fear any of this and I wouldn't expect anyone in Christ to fear any of this. Whether or not we're witnessing anything foretold in the Book of Revelation , there's lots of reasons for Christians to have for hope in that Book.

Revelation 4:8

Each of these living beings had six wings, and their wings were covered all over with eyes, inside and out. Day after day and night after night they keep on saying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty— the one who always was, who is, and who is still to come.”

Revelation 8:9-13

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Revelation 15

And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given them by God 3 and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... CYpNv9VnKI

[Bootstrap]

First, I wouldn't expect a single authoritarian figure (like Donald J Trump ) to pull this off. More like an international agreement in the name of an emergencies.

A national figure can pull it off in that nation. As China does today.

I doubt that we will see international cooperation on that scale. Consider how hard it is for even just the European Union to enact basic policies on refugees and immigration. Or consider the fact that the United States is not subject to the International Criminal Court. Or how hard it is to get the world to agree on who is committing human rights abuses. Or even to agree how outbreaks of Covid-19 should be tracked and reported among nations.

If we do, I think a LOT of parties will be concerned about data privacy and potential abuses. See, for instance, this report.

Also I don't fear any of this and I wouldn't expect anyone in Christ to fear any of this. Whether or not we're witnessing anything foretold in the Book of Revelation, there's lots of reasons for Christians to have for hope in that Book.

Amen.

And the early Christians, who faced real persecution, generally sounded less fearful than some Christians living in comfort today. I have to admit that I'm not the kind of person who spends most of my time worrying about the future.

I find this helpful: "So don’t worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today’s trouble is enough for today." Most of the things we worry about won't happen. The things we actually need to worry about a year from now are different than what we think about now. Most of the real crises are surprises, not the things we had been worrying about up to the time that they occurred.

Of course, Hemingway is also right:

“The coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave but one'.... (The man who first said that) was probably a coward.... He knew a great deal about cowards but nothing about the brave. The brave dies perhaps two thousand deaths if he's intelligent. He simply doesn't mention them.”

Depending on your role, there is often virtue to planning for a variety of contingencies, without putting too much stock or energy in the two thousand ways we could each die. More important to give thanks for each day we live, and to rejoice in God day by day.

[Falco Underhill]

A national figure can pull it off in that nation. As China does today.

China is a communist country and totalitarian by definition — the CCP rules.

I find this helpful: "So don’t worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today’s trouble is enough for today." Most of the things we worry about won't happen. The things we actually need to worry about a year from now are different than what we think about now. Most of the real crises are surprises, not the things we had been worrying about up to the time that they occurred.

This doesn't really concern me much at all, save in so far as it interests me. Apparently other people on the forum are disturbed by it, so I'm thinkin' maybe I need to watch what I say.

[Falco Underhill]

And the early Christians, who faced real persecution, generally sounded less fearful than some Christians living in comfort today. I have to admit that I'm not the kind of person who spends most of my time worrying about the future.

In 202 when his father, Leonidas, was beheaded for his Christian beliefs, Origen wanted to die as a martyr, too. But his mother prevented him from even leaving the house—by hiding his clothes.

Yeah, we do see things differently today, don't we.

[Bootstrap]

And the early Christians, who faced real persecution, generally sounded less fearful than some Christians living in comfort today. I have to admit that I'm not the kind of person who spends most of my time worrying about the future.

In 202 when his father, Leonidas, was beheaded for his Christian beliefs, Origen wanted to die as a martyr, too. But his mother prevented him from even leaving the house—by hiding his clothes.

Yeah, we do see things differently today, don't we.

Do we? If I start seeing beheadings, I will start to take the kinds of precautions that Origin's mother took. But I'm just not seeing a lot of beheadings in modern America right now. Not in my family, at least.

I wasn't even beheaded when I got vaccinated.

[Falco Underhill]

And the early Christians, who faced real persecution, generally sounded less fearful than some Christians living in comfort today. I have to admit that I'm not the kind of person who spends most of my time worrying about the future.

In 202 when his father, Leonidas, was beheaded for his Christian beliefs, Origen wanted to die as a martyr, too. But his mother prevented him from even leaving the house—by hiding his clothes.

Yeah, we do see things differently today, don't we.

Do we? If I start seeing beheadings, I will start to take the kinds of precautions that Origin's mother took. But I'm just not seeing a lot of beheadings in modern America right now. Not in my family, at least.

My point was Origen's behavior, not his mother's.

[Falco Underhill]

First, I wouldn't expect a single authoritarian figure (like Donald J Trump ) to pull this off. More like an international agreement in the name of an emergencies.

I doubt that we will see international cooperation on that scale. Consider how hard it is for even just the European Union to enact basic policies on refugees and immigration.

Some people seem to think International agreement within the EU at least is possible. Ursula von der Leyen, the EU chief, is attempting to lead a discussion about making forced vaccinations the policy throughout the EU right now.

How we can encourage and potentially think about mandatory vaccination within the European Union? This needs discussion. This needs a common approach, but it is a discussion that I think has to be led," she told a news conference in Brussels.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59497462

[Soloist]

Do we? If I start seeing beheadings, I will start to take the kinds of precautions that Origin's mother took. But I'm just not seeing a lot of beheadings in modern America right now. Not in my family, at least.

I wasn't even beheaded when I got vaccinated.

Its nice not being beheaded for getting vaccinated. I'm sure you did it to avoid the chopping block

Poor Leonidas could have prevented being killed by just doing a few paltry things. He got persecuted for stubbornness rather then for Christ.