3) Progressive-minded Anabaptist - Nuanced in approach to Scripture; Strong faith-driven motivation toward peace and social justice, emphasizing Christ's heart for the marginalized; Egalitarian-minded in family and church leadership roles; Prioritizes "love over law" in relation to sexuality, divorce, and other human complexities; Against state-sponsored killing including warfare and capital punishment; Want abortions reduced, but not necessarily by outlawing choice; Supportive of gun control; Would like less military spending replaced by more programs to help those less advantaged; Sympathetic to civil rights initiatives in the face of systemic racism and inequities; Believes in living simply and that climate change is a global threat.
So I feel called out.
You should be...in some ways you were the template.
My hope was to write the poll options in a way that did justice to the best intentions of each position - we would all do better if we could start with seeing the best of each other's perspectives instead of projecting the worst. Politics, unfortunately, doesn't live that way.
mercysfree wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:58 pm
And I am strongly in favor of simplicity in personal lifestyle choices. Funny how that is progressive.
This was a good point, and I think most conservative-minded Anabaptists would subscribe to the idea of a simple lifestyle - motivated by traditional values, "plainness," and an aversion to the trappings of wealth. I added the word "simple" before the word "lifestyle" in description #1 to better reflect this.
"Simplicity" for a more progressive-minded Anabaptist has stronger motivational links to social justice and environmental stewardship.
ken wrote:The larger point is that I think we link politics and religion at our peril. Especially so in the Anabaptist world which comes from a two kingdom theology.
I agree with this point Ken...and I believe that is the gist of what's behind the independence and political aloofness of position #2. Although, perhaps most folks (including you) understandably have difficulty teasing politics out of their hopes and expectations for their families and businesses and society. In other words, I think it takes a pretty robust two-kingdom theology and a strong commitment to remaining a-political to achieve this - and, frankly, I don't think this is all that common.
ken wrote:The larger point is that I think we link politics and religion at our peril. Especially so in the Anabaptist world which comes from a two kingdom theology.
I agree with this point Ken...and I believe that is the gist of what's behind the independence and political aloofness of position #2. Although, perhaps most folks (including you) understandably have difficulty teasing politics out of their hopes and expectations for their families and businesses and society. In other words, I think it takes a pretty robust two-kingdom theology and a strong commitment to remaining a-political to achieve this - and, frankly, I don't think this is all that common.
I think it is perfectly accurate to STEREOTYPE Conservative Anabaptist groups as having conservative political beliefs. No doubt the majority who are political do so. Likewise it is perfectly accurate to STEREOTYPE Liberal Anabaptist groups as having liberal political beliefs. No doubt the majority of them do have share some liberal political beliefs.
The question I would have is whether or not such political beliefs are inherent aspects of being members of conservative or liberal religious groups. I think one can be a member of a conservative Anabaptist group and also believe in gun control and that military budgets should be reduced and that Christian nationalism is a perversion of Christianity. I expect my very conservative grandfather would have believed all of those things. Likewise I think there are many members of liberal MCUSA churches that are mainstream Republicans. Probably the majority of them are in many rural areas.
One could also stereotype most Conservative Anabaptists as being white, rural, and of Northern European ethnic heritage. Are those also inherent characteristics of being a Conservative Anabaptist? They are probably more universal than conservative politics.
I understand where you are coming from. You are simply trying to identify and describe different types of Anabaptists. And these stereotypes do likely hold true for the majority. I’m only questioning whether it is useful or appropriate to link conservative religious beliefs with conservative political beliefs. I tend to think they should remain separate spheres or “kingdoms” no matter how much they appear to overlap in practice. And regardless how much they do overlap. They do not do so perfectly. And probably less well than we suppose since those in the majority always tend to be the most noisy no matter what the group or subject.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
3) Progressive-minded Anabaptist - Nuanced in approach to Scripture; Strong faith-driven motivation toward peace and social justice, emphasizing Christ's heart for the marginalized; Egalitarian-minded in family and church leadership roles; Prioritizes "love over law" in relation to sexuality, divorce, and other human complexities; Against state-sponsored killing including warfare and capital punishment; Want abortions reduced, but not necessarily by outlawing choice; Supportive of gun control; Would like less military spending replaced by more programs to help those less advantaged; Sympathetic to civil rights initiatives in the face of systemic racism and inequities; Believes in living simply and that climate change is a global threat.
So I feel called out.
You should be...in some ways you were the template.
My hope was to write the poll options in a way that did justice to the best intentions of each position - we would all do better if we could start with seeing the best of each other's perspectives instead of projecting the worst. Politics, unfortunately, doesn't live that way.
I felt you did a good job describing my "group" without judgment. Obviously, there's going to be a range in beliefs like with any other group, but it's a fair description.
I appreciate you Dan and the discussions we've had.
ken wrote:The larger point is that I think we link politics and religion at our peril. Especially so in the Anabaptist world which comes from a two kingdom theology.
I agree with this point Ken...and I believe that is the gist of what's behind the independence and political aloofness of position #2. Although, perhaps most folks (including you) understandably have difficulty teasing politics out of their hopes and expectations for their families and businesses and society. In other words, I think it takes a pretty robust two-kingdom theology and a strong commitment to remaining a-political to achieve this - and, frankly, I don't think this is all that common.
I think it is perfectly accurate to STEREOTYPE Conservative Anabaptist groups as having conservative political beliefs. No doubt the majority who are political do so. Likewise it is perfectly accurate to STEREOTYPE Liberal Anabaptist groups as having liberal political beliefs. No doubt the majority of them do have share some liberal political beliefs.
The question I would have is whether or not such political beliefs are inherent aspects of being members of conservative or liberal religious groups. I think one can be a member of a conservative Anabaptist group and also believe in gun control and that military budgets should be reduced and that Christian nationalism is a perversion of Christianity. I expect my very conservative grandfather would have believed all of those things. Likewise I think there are many members of liberal MCUSA churches that are mainstream Republicans. Probably the majority of them are in many rural areas.
One could also stereotype most Conservative Anabaptists as being white, rural, and of Northern European ethnic heritage. Are those also inherent characteristics of being a Conservative Anabaptist? They are probably more universal than conservative politics.
I understand where you are coming from. You are simply trying to identify and describe different types of Anabaptists. And these stereotypes do likely hold true for the majority. I’m only questioning whether it is useful or appropriate to link conservative religious beliefs with conservative political beliefs. I tend to think they should remain separate spheres or “kingdoms” no matter how much they appear to overlap in practice. And regardless how much they do overlap. They do not do so perfectly. And probably less well than we suppose since those in the majority always tend to be the most noisy no matter what the group or subject.
Most of my church’s members in Haiti and Nigeria are not white, although they definitely are rural.
I have no idea about their political leanings at all. Generally speaking you aren’t supposed to get involved in too much politics.
So, no, your ethnic stereotypes about conservative Anabaptists are incorrect.
I agree with this point Ken...and I believe that is the gist of what's behind the independence and political aloofness of position #2. Although, perhaps most folks (including you) understandably have difficulty teasing politics out of their hopes and expectations for their families and businesses and society. In other words, I think it takes a pretty robust two-kingdom theology and a strong commitment to remaining a-political to achieve this - and, frankly, I don't think this is all that common.
I think it is perfectly accurate to STEREOTYPE Conservative Anabaptist groups as having conservative political beliefs. No doubt the majority who are political do so. Likewise it is perfectly accurate to STEREOTYPE Liberal Anabaptist groups as having liberal political beliefs. No doubt the majority of them do have share some liberal political beliefs.
The question I would have is whether or not such political beliefs are inherent aspects of being members of conservative or liberal religious groups. I think one can be a member of a conservative Anabaptist group and also believe in gun control and that military budgets should be reduced and that Christian nationalism is a perversion of Christianity. I expect my very conservative grandfather would have believed all of those things. Likewise I think there are many members of liberal MCUSA churches that are mainstream Republicans. Probably the majority of them are in many rural areas.
One could also stereotype most Conservative Anabaptists as being white, rural, and of Northern European ethnic heritage. Are those also inherent characteristics of being a Conservative Anabaptist? They are probably more universal than conservative politics.
I understand where you are coming from. You are simply trying to identify and describe different types of Anabaptists. And these stereotypes do likely hold true for the majority. I’m only questioning whether it is useful or appropriate to link conservative religious beliefs with conservative political beliefs. I tend to think they should remain separate spheres or “kingdoms” no matter how much they appear to overlap in practice. And regardless how much they do overlap. They do not do so perfectly. And probably less well than we suppose since those in the majority always tend to be the most noisy no matter what the group or subject.
Most of my church’s members in Haiti and Nigeria are not white, although they definitely are rural.
I have no idea about their political leanings at all. Generally speaking you aren’t supposed to get involved in too much politics.
So, no, your ethnic stereotypes about conservative Anabaptists are incorrect.
Josh, you of course never fail to miss my point but you also just made it for me.
My point was that neither politics nor ethnicity are (or should be) inherent characteristics of what it means to be Anabaptist. And if they become so then the church is weaker for it.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:52 pmI understand where you are coming from. You are simply trying to identify and describe different types of Anabaptists. And these stereotypes do likely hold true for the majority. I’m only questioning whether it is useful or appropriate to link conservative religious beliefs with conservative political beliefs. I tend to think they should remain separate spheres or “kingdoms” no matter how much they appear to overlap in practice. And regardless how much they do overlap. They do not do so perfectly. And probably less well than we suppose since those in the majority always tend to be the most noisy no matter what the group or subject.
You make some good points here Ken, although I was aiming the poll at individual Anabaptists' self-perception, and not trying to stereotype groups as you say. What I think I'm exploring here is how might the nexus of faith and politics might be playing out within Anabaptist circles. Yes, faith and politics are and should be two separate things (although in an ethical sense a robust faith informs some political perspectives), but from my observation of Anabaptism (and Christianity in general) over the decades, it feels like those lines are increasingly blurring.
