Haiti Kidnapping

[Ken]

if i was the one kidnapped, i would many different emotions to work thru.
not the least would be that i would have a hard time processing the fact that my family doesn't care enough about me to want to attempt to get me out of that situation.
it's easy to say, don't reward the kidnappers for bad behavior. but i think that i would have a very hard time if my family didn't attempt to pay the ransom. if they said, sorry, we aren't being blackmailed like that, you are on your own. (i would hear, you aren't worth it to me.)

Do you think those tortured and killed for the sake of the gospel that are documented in the Martyr's Mirror had that same struggle?

Where do you draw the line with this kind of thinking? Should we all grab our guns and head to Haiti to free them?

I don't think anyone here it talking about leading an armed commando raid. We are talking about what we would do if our own families were being held for ransom.

What does the bible say about paying ransom? Here is one verse: " If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him." (Exodus 21:30)

[mercysfree]

Wow. That's such a stellar example of taking a verse out of context that I have to point it out: Exodus 21 is discussing punishments for intentional and accidental wrongdoing, *not* anything remotely close to paying ransom for kidnapping.

[temporal1]

if i was the one kidnapped, i would many different emotions to work thru.
not the least would be that i would have a hard time processing the fact that my family doesn't care enough about me to want to attempt to get me out of that situation. ..

if in this situation, i doubt this dread would occur to you, i more expect your thoughts would be in knowing your loved ones would do anything for your safe return, then prayers for them not to suffer where they are, made helpless and fearful by criminals.

(i expect) you would be preoccupied with caring for others with you in captivity, helping in every way possible, spiritually and physically, to the best of your ability throughout. you would be kind to your captors, no matter how difficult. you would pray for strength and grace. it’s not known if the captives are allowed any interaction. nor their condition.

(i imagine) this is what is happening in these young captives, not ever doubting the love or wishes of their loved ones at home.
in crisis, even atheists turn to God.

Jesus experienced anguish on His cross, He cried out to His Father. He never doubted His loved ones, nor that His Father, God, was in ultimate control, regardless that His mother and loved ones would have spared Him, even taken His place. They were not in control.

(i believe) speculation, and prayers, in this thread represent fear and grieving. frustration with helplessness. hand-wringing.
the human mind races to understand/control/change that which is senseless.

the captors are the criminals. sin causes suffering.
this forum often reflects how difficult it is to focus on the perpetrators as responsible. not victims or others.

[nett]

if i was the one kidnapped, i would many different emotions to work thru.
not the least would be that i would have a hard time processing the fact that my family doesn't care enough about me to want to attempt to get me out of that situation.
it's easy to say, don't reward the kidnappers for bad behavior. but i think that i would have a very hard time if my family didn't attempt to pay the ransom. if they said, sorry, we aren't being blackmailed like that, you are on your own. (i would hear, you aren't worth it to me.)

Do you think those tortured and killed for the sake of the gospel that are documented in the Martyr's Mirror had that same struggle?

Where do you draw the line with this kind of thinking? Should we all grab our guns and head to Haiti to free them?

I don't think anyone here it talking about leading an armed commando raid. We are talking about what we would do if our own families were being held for ransom.

What does the bible say about paying ransom? Here is one verse: " If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him." (Exodus 21:30)

That passage is referring to someone who owns an ox that has a habit of goring people, and does not confine it.

I think you knew that, but not sure what you're intention is.

[temporal1]

nett:
That passage is referring to someone who owns an ox that has a habit of goring people, and does not confine it.

one early joy i experienced on MD was reading dialogue between teens and young ones that was Biblical exposition/exegesis. including references to Latin and Greek sources, real effort given to understanding in context.

it made an impression on me as little else.
it was encouraging to find that some parents, and some teachers, somewhere, valued scriptures to the point of expecting dedicated study, even by the very young. it is assuring to know this continues, altho not recognized in the mainstream.

any experience that can inspire a person to read further, dig deeper into scriptures for Light, rather than to be content with quick word searches for cherry-picked points, becomes worthwhile. anyone (today) can read, reading with the blessing of the Holy Spirit allows Light. we can pray to be allowed better understanding. understanding is a blessing, not an entirely self-centric action.

[nett]

nett:
That passage is referring to someone who owns an ox that has a habit of goring people, and does not confine it.

one early joy i experienced on MD was reading dialogue between teens and young ones that was Biblical exposition/exegesis. including references to Latin and Greek sources, real effort given to understanding in context.

it made an impression on me as little else.
it was encouraging to find that some parents, and some teachers, somewhere, valued scriptures to the point of expecting dedicated study, even by the very young. it is assuring to know this continues, altho not recognized in the mainstream.

any experience that can inspire a person to read further, dig deeper into scriptures for Light, rather than to be content with quick word searches for cherry-picked points, becomes worthwhile. anyone (today) can read, reading with the blessing of the Holy Spirit allows Light. we can pray to be allowed better understanding. understanding is a blessing, not an entirely self-centric action.

I assume Ken was just trolling, as he is apt to do.

[Ken]

nett:
That passage is referring to someone who owns an ox that has a habit of goring people, and does not confine it.

one early joy i experienced on MD was reading dialogue between teens and young ones that was Biblical exposition/exegesis. including references to Latin and Greek sources, real effort given to understanding in context.

it made an impression on me as little else.
it was encouraging to find that some parents, and some teachers, somewhere, valued scriptures to the point of expecting dedicated study, even by the very young. it is assuring to know this continues, altho not recognized in the mainstream.

any experience that can inspire a person to read further, dig deeper into scriptures for Light, rather than to be content with quick word searches for cherry-picked points, becomes worthwhile. anyone (today) can read, reading with the blessing of the Holy Spirit allows Light. we can pray to be allowed better understanding. understanding is a blessing, not an entirely self-centric action.

I assume Ken was just trolling, as he is apt to do.

Yes sort of. But if Haitians claim that they were metaphorically gored by the ox of wealthy North Americans who have exploited that country for decades or centuries, and that they are owed ransom from wealthy North Americans it gets a little more relevant. I expect that there are a lot of Haitians who believe they are owed reparations and aid from the wealthy north for decades of neglect and exploitation. I think these particular hostages were just victims of circumstance or targets of opportunity. And I don’t think Haitian criminal gangs represent the Haitian people. But I do think we generally owe Haiti more attention than we have paid it in recent decades rather than “goring” that country as we as North Americans have largely done. So stepping back and looking at the big picture, what “ransom” do we owe to our neighbor Haiti? Anything?

[nett]

one early joy i experienced on MD was reading dialogue between teens and young ones that was Biblical exposition/exegesis. including references to Latin and Greek sources, real effort given to understanding in context.

it made an impression on me as little else.
it was encouraging to find that some parents, and some teachers, somewhere, valued scriptures to the point of expecting dedicated study, even by the very young. it is assuring to know this continues, altho not recognized in the mainstream.

any experience that can inspire a person to read further, dig deeper into scriptures for Light, rather than to be content with quick word searches for cherry-picked points, becomes worthwhile. anyone (today) can read, reading with the blessing of the Holy Spirit allows Light. we can pray to be allowed better understanding. understanding is a blessing, not an entirely self-centric action.

I assume Ken was just trolling, as he is apt to do.

Yes sort of. But if Haitians claim that they were metaphorically gored by the ox of wealthy North Americans who have exploited that country for decades or centuries, and that they are owed ransom from wealthy North Americans it gets a little more relevant. I expect that there are a lot of Haitians who believe they are owed reparations and aid from the wealthy north for decades of neglect and exploitation. I think these particular hostages were just victims of circumstance or targets of opportunity. And I don’t think Haitian criminal gangs represent the Haitian people. But I do think we generally owe Haiti more attention than we have paid it in recent decades rather than “goring” that country as we as North Americans have largely done. So stepping back and looking at the big picture, what “ransom” do we owe to our neighbor Haiti? Anything?

Are you suggesting that the populace or the government of Haiti would like us to pay $17m to violent gangs? I don't think so.

[Biblical Anabaptist]

I wonder which would leave the greater testimony to the world around, 17 people being martyred for Christ or the believers banding together to raise 17 million for the release of their brothers and sisters in the Lord?
I added up the membership reported in the 2018 Mennonite Church Directory published by CLP(the most recent one I have) . If I added correctly, there were 47,767 members at that time. If each member could contribute an average of $355.90, that would be the 17 million needed. True, probably 1/3 of those people would not support CAM for one reason or another. Even so a contribution of less than $500.00 per member would supply the funds needed. I think that would be doable without working a long-term hardship on anyone.

[nett]

I wonder which would leave the greater testimony to the world around, 17 people being martyred for Christ or the believers banding together to raise 17 million for the release of their brothers and sisters in the Lord?
I added up the membership reported in the 2018 Mennonite Church Directory published by CLP(the most recent one I have) . If I added correctly, there were 47,767 members at that time. If each member could contribute an average of $355.90, that would be the 17 million needed. True, probably 1/3 of those people would not support CAM for one reason or another. Even so a contribution of less than $500.00 per member would supply the funds needed. I think that would be doable without working a long-term hardship on anyone.

Generally martyrs lead more people to Christ than wealth, at that's my understanding of history.