The Anabaptist perspective towards dating and/or courtship?

[Ken]

I know ex-plain people who divorced, but all but one of them that I can think of divorced some time after leaving. I don’t think it’s fair to count those divorces as occurring among plain people.

I think you are making something of a semantic argument. If marriages happen within the plain community and they subsequently come apart. The fact that plain churches simply expel anyone who has an unsuccessful marriage doesn't mean they have a perfect record when it comes to family and marriage. It just means they hide the evidence.

My wife is a physician. She would have a phenomenal looking record if she simply purged her panel of every patient who got sick and only kept the healthy and fit ones around to "count"

To get a true count, you should start with every marriage within the plain community and track them for success regardless of where the couple ends up. I suspect if you did that you would still see a much lower divorce rate within the plain world than wider society. But it would not be zero. And you would probably find more unhappy marriages simply because the barriers to ending a marriage are so much higher in the plain world.

So if one of your wife's patients stops treatment with her and goes to a clinic in Mexico, then dies a year later, you think that ought to reflect on your wife's record as a failed treatment?

It seems to me that's what you're saying.

Mike is talking about folks that have left the plain churches, and divorced sometime after. I don't see how you can treat that as "plain churches simply expel[ing] anyone who has an unsuccessful marriage" as you put it.

Just upstream we heard about an entire family being excommunicated because the father got a divorce. Which is it? Is divorce allowed in plain churches or forbidden? If it is forbidden, what are the consequences if a couple gets divorced?

I'm just pointing out that the marriage failure rate in plain churches is not zero. And forcing anyone with a failed marriage to leave the church doesn't change that fact.

[ohio jones]

You can only excommunicate someone who is still there or in the process of leaving, not someone who left ten years ago.

[steve-in-kville]

I think you’re minimizing the harm and trauma of verbal and emotional abuse. I was married for sixteen years to a narcissist. What I experienced wasn’t an occasional “bad day,” like all marriages have. What I experienced was unremitting psychological warfare where I had to continuously walk on egg shells, because the wrong look or saying the wrong thing would set her off. If I expressed the wrong opinion, it would set her off. I was frequently the target of manipulation and gaslighting. With all due respect, you have no idea what you’re talking about. You have no idea how dehumanizing and oppressive a verbally and emotionally abusive relationship is.

Thank you for sharing that.

[Szdfan]

I think you’re minimizing the harm and trauma of verbal and emotional abuse. I was married for sixteen years to a narcissist. What I experienced wasn’t an occasional “bad day,” like all marriages have. What I experienced was unremitting psychological warfare where I had to continuously walk on egg shells, because the wrong look or saying the wrong thing would set her off. If I expressed the wrong opinion, it would set her off. I was frequently the target of manipulation and gaslighting. With all due respect, you have no idea what you’re talking about. You have no idea how dehumanizing and oppressive a verbally and emotionally abusive relationship is.

Thank you for sharing that.

Thanks. I am open about my experience — it’s a lot more common than people think it is.

[mike]

i'm not saying that divorce is right or wrong. i'm not saying that the reality of the world is any better or any worse.

what i'm trying to get thru to you, is that the stats for plain people are manipulated. of course divorce is pretty much non existent in the plain churches, because the ones who get divorced have left the plain life. and so they don't get counted.

I know ex-plain people who divorced, but all but one of them that I can think of divorced some time after leaving. I don’t think it’s fair to count those divorces as occurring among plain people.

I think you are making something of a semantic argument. If marriages happen within the plain community and they subsequently come apart. The fact that plain churches simply expel anyone who has an unsuccessful marriage doesn't mean they have a perfect record when it comes to family and marriage. It just means they hide the evidence.

No, they don't. A couple who divorces ten years after having left the plain church is not a divorce occurring among the plain people. Also, it is untrue that "plain churches simply expel anyone who has an unsuccessful marriage." Plain churches will expel people for adultery, for divorcing their spouse, or for remarrying after a divorce. They will not expel someone simply for having an unsuccessful marriage.

Also, no one is claiming there is a perfect record.

My wife is a physician. She would have a phenomenal looking record if she simply purged her panel of every patient who got sick and only kept the healthy and fit ones around to "count"

If your wife treated somebody for allergies ten years ago, and never saw the patient since, the fact that they got cancer today doesn't mean anything for your wife's "record."

To get a true count, you should start with every marriage within the plain community and track them for success regardless of where the couple ends up. I suspect if you did that you would still see a much lower divorce rate within the plain world than wider society. But it would not be zero. And you would probably find more unhappy marriages simply because the barriers to ending a marriage are so much higher in the plain world.

Again, nobody is saying there is a record of zero.

It doesn't seem at all right to me to count divorces of ex-plain people, who have among other things often discarded the view that marriage is permanent, as happening in the plain churches. If ex-plain people have have incidences of cohabiting with their girlfriends or getting high on drugs or of running afoul of the law, do we count those things as occurring within the plain communities?

Also, the barriers to ending marriage that exist within the plain world are based on biblical teaching about marriage. I would argue that following the biblical teaching about marriage results in fewer unhappy marriages, not more. God's laws are meant for our good.

People who believe in the permanence of marriage are broken and struggle with sin just like everyone else. However I believe that if one follows Jesus the net result is a better life than if one chooses not to obey. One of the results of broken marriages is often unstable families and children who suffer immensely. For all the problems plain people have, and for the unhappiness that may allegedly exist in some marriages, I generally still see a generational pattern of strong marriages and families. In contrast, among my close associates at work for example, I see many instances of what happens when there are multiple marriages and divorces and affairs and separations and live-in partners. To say that in this kind of culture there are more happy marriages than there are among people who believe in the permanence of marriage is hardly even worth a reply. Reality speaks for itself.

[mike]

i'm not saying that divorce is right or wrong. i'm not saying that the reality of the world is any better or any worse.

what i'm trying to get thru to you, is that the stats for plain people are manipulated. of course divorce is pretty much non existent in the plain churches, because the ones who get divorced have left the plain life. and so they don't get counted.

I had a congregant who grew up plain and whose entire family was excommunicated when her father left and divorced her mother, even though they didn’t have anything to do with it.

Were these other family members church members who had their membership forfeited solely because of the actions of their father?

[Szdfan]

I think you’re minimizing the harm and trauma of verbal and emotional abuse. I was married for sixteen years to a narcissist. What I experienced wasn’t an occasional “bad day,” like all marriages have. What I experienced was unremitting psychological warfare where I had to continuously walk on egg shells, because the wrong look or saying the wrong thing would set her off. If I expressed the wrong opinion, it would set her off. I was frequently the target of manipulation and gaslighting. With all due respect, you have no idea what you’re talking about. You have no idea how dehumanizing and oppressive a verbally and emotionally abusive relationship is.

In the year after I got remarried, I would randomly start crying over nothing, because for the first time I felt safe enough to realize how traumatized I was by my first marriage.

My divorce was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done and I’m still living with the consequences of it. If my ex-wife was not a narcissist and capable of change, I would still be married to her. We married for almost 16 years, because I tried to make it work. I walked away when I couldn’t live like that anymore.

My divorce was hard and ugly. It also probably saved my life.

I cannot relate to what you went through. All I can say is what Jesus said and attempt to walk out His teachings.

I understand.

I think that when, however, that when someone minimizes the reasons people get divorced and minimizes verbal abuse, they are enabling abuse by making it harder for victims to talk about their experiences or to remove themselves from the situation.

I shared your comments in a private group made up of conservative and ex-conservative Mennonites who question or reject the teachings on patriarchy and gender roles. One response pointed out that there’s a difference between a difficult marriage and a destructive marriage:

Huge difference between between difficult or destructive. Difficult and disappointing can usually be worked on and improved if both parties do the work.

In a destructive marriage, the partner with destructive behavior has to be willing to seek help, become accountable, and take ownership and responsibility for the behavior. This seldom happens.

[Szdfan]

i'm not saying that divorce is right or wrong. i'm not saying that the reality of the world is any better or any worse.

what i'm trying to get thru to you, is that the stats for plain people are manipulated. of course divorce is pretty much non existent in the plain churches, because the ones who get divorced have left the plain life. and so they don't get counted.

I had a congregant who grew up plain and whose entire family was excommunicated when her father left and divorced her mother, even though they didn’t have anything to do with it.

Were these other family members church members who had their membership forfeited solely because of the actions of their father?

I don’t know details but I believe that was the case. This happened back in the 50s or early 60s.

[mike]

I think you’re minimizing the harm and trauma of verbal and emotional abuse. I was married for sixteen years to a narcissist. What I experienced wasn’t an occasional “bad day,” like all marriages have. What I experienced was unremitting psychological warfare where I had to continuously walk on egg shells, because the wrong look or saying the wrong thing would set her off. If I expressed the wrong opinion, it would set her off. I was frequently the target of manipulation and gaslighting. With all due respect, you have no idea what you’re talking about. You have no idea how dehumanizing and oppressive a verbally and emotionally abusive relationship is.

In the year after I got remarried, I would randomly start crying over nothing, because for the first time I felt safe enough to realize how traumatized I was by my first marriage.

My divorce was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done and I’m still living with the consequences of it. If my ex-wife was not a narcissist and capable of change, I would still be married to her. We married for almost 16 years, because I tried to make it work. I walked away when I couldn’t live like that anymore.

My divorce was hard and ugly. It also probably saved my life.

I am deeply sorry for what happened to you. Without knowing more, I do not fault someone separating from a spouse in order to protect themselves or especially to protect children. I have in-laws whose mother separated from a mentally unstable husband for a time for physical protection for herself and her family. The situation was able to be resolved in time and they came back together. I think this should be the goal for any separation, if possible. And I know that it is not always possible.

[Josh]

i'm not saying that divorce is right or wrong. i'm not saying that the reality of the world is any better or any worse.

what i'm trying to get thru to you, is that the stats for plain people are manipulated. of course divorce is pretty much non existent in the plain churches, because the ones who get divorced have left the plain life. and so they don't get counted.

That’s simply not true. There are plenty of people who are divorced in plain circles.

It’s true that if you divorce your spouse for no reason, you will be expected to repent of that. And I don’t see how that’s a bad thing.