The Anabaptist perspective towards dating and/or courtship?

[PeterG]

I think it was out of respect. He was getting permission to court the daughter, I never heard of the girl being obligated, though. Keep in mind, this was a pretty conservative circle, like EPMC and such like.

If the guy and girl already knew each other and both wanted to date then checking with the parents for permission is a matter of respect. No problem with that.

But from what you described, he was just randomly contacting the fathers of girls who didn’t necessarily know him or weren’t interested in him, and looking for a “hit” so to speak. That is different. Did any of those girls even know this was happening before hand? That isn’t a show of respect to either the girl or her father. That is an attempt to turn dating into a transaction between two men rather than an interaction between a man and woman. It sounds like the fathers mostly saw through this and didn’t play along. And good for them. But what if that hadn’t been the case? What if some poor girl had been forced to deal with and date him because it was all pre-arranged in advance?

In many conservative circles it's something in between the two things you're describing. It's considered proper for a man to initiate a relationship with a woman (who may or may not have expressed interest) by approaching her father, who will then inform his daughter. The woman then decides whether or not to go forward with the relationship. So your first scenario goes, Step 1: Man and woman decide they want to date, then Step 2: They ask parents for permission; the common practice in some circles is more like, Step 1: A man decides he wants to date a certain woman, who may or may not have expressed interest, then Step 2: The man asks the woman's parents for permission, then Step 3: The woman decides (or formalizes a previously made decision) whether or not to date the man. Hope that makes sense.

[Ken]

I think it was out of respect. He was getting permission to court the daughter, I never heard of the girl being obligated, though. Keep in mind, this was a pretty conservative circle, like EPMC and such like.

If the guy and girl already knew each other and both wanted to date then checking with the parents for permission is a matter of respect. No problem with that.

But from what you described, he was just randomly contacting the fathers of girls who didn’t necessarily know him or weren’t interested in him, and looking for a “hit” so to speak. That is different. Did any of those girls even know this was happening before hand? That isn’t a show of respect to either the girl or her father. That is an attempt to turn dating into a transaction between two men rather than an interaction between a man and woman. It sounds like the fathers mostly saw through this and didn’t play along. And good for them. But what if that hadn’t been the case? What if some poor girl had been forced to deal with and date him because it was all pre-arranged in advance?

In many conservative circles it's something in between the two things you're describing. It's considered proper for a man to initiate a relationship with a woman (who may or may not have expressed interest) by approaching her father, who will then inform his daughter. The woman then decides whether or not to go forward with the relationship. So your first scenario goes, Step 1: Man and woman decide they want to date, then Step 2: They ask parents for permission; the common practice in some circles is more like, Step 1: A man decides he wants to date a certain woman, who may or may not have expressed interest, then Step 2: The man asks the woman's parents for permission, then Step 3: The woman decides (or formalizes a previously made decision) whether or not to date the man. Hope that makes sense.

Oh, I understand the concept completely.

I would characterize the difference as asking for the parents blessing on the one hand versus asking for the parents permission on the other. I am all in favor of couples seeking the blessing of both parents actually. I think that is a good thing. But as a parent of three daughters, I’m less comfortable with the notion of guys who they may not be interested in, seeking them out through me.

I would actually expect that a lot of what happens in the circles of which you speak is that the girl has already expressed some sort of interest through flirtations, word of mouth, or whatever and the seeking of the parents permission is something of a formality.

[ken_sylvania]

If the guy and girl already knew each other and both wanted to date then checking with the parents for permission is a matter of respect. No problem with that.

But from what you described, he was just randomly contacting the fathers of girls who didn’t necessarily know him or weren’t interested in him, and looking for a “hit” so to speak. That is different. Did any of those girls even know this was happening before hand? That isn’t a show of respect to either the girl or her father. That is an attempt to turn dating into a transaction between two men rather than an interaction between a man and woman. It sounds like the fathers mostly saw through this and didn’t play along. And good for them. But what if that hadn’t been the case? What if some poor girl had been forced to deal with and date him because it was all pre-arranged in advance?

In many conservative circles it's something in between the two things you're describing. It's considered proper for a man to initiate a relationship with a woman (who may or may not have expressed interest) by approaching her father, who will then inform his daughter. The woman then decides whether or not to go forward with the relationship. So your first scenario goes, Step 1: Man and woman decide they want to date, then Step 2: They ask parents for permission; the common practice in some circles is more like, Step 1: A man decides he wants to date a certain woman, who may or may not have expressed interest, then Step 2: The man asks the woman's parents for permission, then Step 3: The woman decides (or formalizes a previously made decision) whether or not to date the man. Hope that makes sense.

Oh, I understand the concept completely.

I would characterize the difference as asking for the parents blessing on the one hand versus asking for the parents permission on the other. I am all in favor of couples seeking the blessing of both parents actually. I think that is a good thing. But as a parent of three daughters, I’m less comfortable with the notion of guys who they may not be interested in, seeking them out through me.

I would actually expect that a lot of what happens in the circles of which you speak is that the girl has already expressed some sort of interest through flirtations, word of mouth, or whatever and the seeking of the parents permission is something of a formality.

You do have a good imagination sometimes.

[PeterG]

I would actually expect that a lot of what happens in the circles of which you speak is that the girl has already expressed some sort of interest through flirtations, word of mouth, or whatever and the seeking of the parents permission is something of a formality.

That's definitely the case.

[Ken]

In many conservative circles it's something in between the two things you're describing. It's considered proper for a man to initiate a relationship with a woman (who may or may not have expressed interest) by approaching her father, who will then inform his daughter. The woman then decides whether or not to go forward with the relationship. So your first scenario goes, Step 1: Man and woman decide they want to date, then Step 2: They ask parents for permission; the common practice in some circles is more like, Step 1: A man decides he wants to date a certain woman, who may or may not have expressed interest, then Step 2: The man asks the woman's parents for permission, then Step 3: The woman decides (or formalizes a previously made decision) whether or not to date the man. Hope that makes sense.

Oh, I understand the concept completely.

I would characterize the difference as asking for the parents blessing on the one hand versus asking for the parents permission on the other. I am all in favor of couples seeking the blessing of both parents actually. I think that is a good thing. But as a parent of three daughters, I’m less comfortable with the notion of guys who they may not be interested in, seeking them out through me.

I would actually expect that a lot of what happens in the circles of which you speak is that the girl has already expressed some sort of interest through flirtations, word of mouth, or whatever and the seeking of the parents permission is something of a formality.

You do have a good imagination sometimes.

In my case it would be a short conversation.

HIM: "Mr. Ken....I'd like your permission to date your daughter"

ME: "Well....Does SHE want to date YOU?"

HIM: "ummm"

ME: "How about you come back and see me when you know the answer to that question"

[steve-in-kville]

Lots of good commentary. Thank you

[Josh]

You can call it whatever you want and present the case for whatever you want, but ultimately young adults have the decision to choose how they will flesh these things out.

The meeting of a spouse is one of those things that can happen in the most unexpected ways.

I know some 30 something year olds who completely missed the bus on finding a spouse because they subscribed to a certain formula that never materialized.

The courtship, Charity, homeschool, and Gothard movements were particularly bad about this.

[Josh]

The individual I had in mind was a bit socially awkward (but then, so am I) and would write letters to the father of single girls asking to court their daughters, only to get shot down. And within a week he would do the same to someone else.

That is probably not a winning strategy.

Exactly.

So the girls had no agency in this process at all? They were just the subject of a transaction between two men?

I actually think that more formal matchmaking types of activities would be useful in many communities. The conservative old-tech version of match.com. Thing like speed-dating and unofficial matchmakers in the community of the sort that I understand are more common in say conservative Jewish communities.

I actually don't know how much of that sort of thing actually happens. Maybe plenty of it. But if this is actually a problem that needs 'fixing' then there are lots of tried and true solutions going back millennia.

Quite the contrary. The girl reviews the applicants and then accepts (or more likely rejects) them.

It’s a dumb system.

[Josh]

Looking for some lively discussion with a poll mixed in. Open to all registered users.

What term did you use? Does your church have any standards on courtship relationships? How long should courtship last? Should length of courtship depend on the age of the couple?

So many questions.

I personally interchange the two, although I've heard discussions that they are indeed different.

The terms don't matter to me. People who react against one or the other are typically reacting against certain behavior, not the terms themselves. In any culture, regardless of the terms and even the particular customs, singles are going to have their ways of determining partners they are interested in, whether that person is also interested in them, and whether they will be compatible marriage partners. Standards on non-married relationships should be the biblical standard of sexual purity and all other principles that should govern relationships. There is no ideal length for courtship but naturally maturity is a factor.

People say maturity is a factor.

Yet people get married late in life now (29 and 30 is the norm) and immorality and divorce are sky high.

[Ken]

Looking for some lively discussion with a poll mixed in. Open to all registered users.

What term did you use? Does your church have any standards on courtship relationships? How long should courtship last? Should length of courtship depend on the age of the couple?

So many questions.

I personally interchange the two, although I've heard discussions that they are indeed different.

The terms don't matter to me. People who react against one or the other are typically reacting against certain behavior, not the terms themselves. In any culture, regardless of the terms and even the particular customs, singles are going to have their ways of determining partners they are interested in, whether that person is also interested in them, and whether they will be compatible marriage partners. Standards on non-married relationships should be the biblical standard of sexual purity and all other principles that should govern relationships. There is no ideal length for courtship but naturally maturity is a factor.

People say maturity is a factor.

Yet people get married late in life now (29 and 30 is the norm) and immorality and divorce are sky high.

Divorce rates are lowest with couples who have more education and get married at a later age. They are highest with couples with less education who get married young.