A wife must stay quiet and submissive. Change my mind.

[Soloist]

I've been in conversation with conservative Mennos and ex-conservative Mennos who are either questioning or rejecting these teachings because the harm it's caused in their own lives. I think that any kind of rigid order can easily be abused or misused. Even in the best cases, this teaching has a tendency to infantilize women and elevate men into "headship" who may not be competent or suitable for the role.

If men pay attention to the words directed to them, and women pay attention to the words directed to them, I think this can be a very healthy teaching.

A lot of the problem comes in when the man insists that his wife submit to him, instead of doing what he is told - loving her, being considerate. And al of this is in the context of submitting one to the other, throughout the church.

Sure and I don't dispute that...I just find that there is a wide gap between the ideal and often the reality.

As Boot pointed out, I would also add that sin does not justify disobedience to Scriptural commands.

[Soloist]

If a woman is unmarried, she doesn't need to submit to a figure other then her parents and the church.

I think its wise for a single adult woman to seek advise from an older brother or the parents if they are still in the picture.

I would disagree with the older brother comment unless you mean a physical brother... the Scripture lays down that the older women should teach the younger women. Parents, sure but another man? very unwise. A couple? reasonable but the Scripture says a woman.

This is really the same basic concept as having a female counselor for a female and vice versa. Too many situations get started by good intentions.

[steve-in-kville]

I would disagree with the older brother comment unless you mean a physical brother... the Scripture lays down that the older women should teach the younger women. Parents, sure but another man? very unwise. A couple? reasonable but the Scripture says a woman.

This is really the same basic concept as having a female counselor for a female and vice versa. Too many situations get started by good intentions.

I meant a blood-relative brother. Or even a BIL.

[theodoreclaudius]

Women tend to be able to sway without words. Im thankful for that because I think this balances some married men from being overbearing and arrogant.

"ultimate authority" doesn't mean always getting what you want, I think it is more of an ultimate responsibility. The commanding officer of a an Aircraft carrier has ultimate authority but he doesn't make very many decisions. Usually a principal assistant has delegated some specialists to work put something together and he finally signs off on the policy. The military describes the CO as "Overall responsible" for the ship, its many departments, functions and its crew. The bible seems to describe married men and leaders with this kind of responsibility.

Thankfully God made women to compliment mans qualities. Being "quiet" can be a good quality whether your a man or a woman.

[temporal1]

Women tend to be able to sway without words.
Im thankful for that because I think this balances some married men from being overbearing and arrogant.

"ultimate authority" doesn't mean always getting what you want, I think it is more of an ultimate responsibility.

The commanding officer of a an Aircraft carrier has ultimate authority but he doesn't make very many decisions.
Usually a principal assistant has delegated some specialists to work put something together and he finally signs off on the policy.
The military describes the CO as "Overall responsible" for the ship, its many departments, functions and its crew.

The bible seems to describe married men and leaders with this kind of responsibility.

Thankfully God made women to compliment mans qualities.
Being "quiet" can be a good quality whether your a man or a woman.

you are pointing out there are complexities in “how relationships work,” and, how God works. thank you. i agree.
scriptures define God’s designed echelon for mankind; comparing with the military is fair, if unexpected, on this forum.

scriptures point out important truths, esp that which is counter-intuitive to human reasoning.
“turn the other cheek.” “forgive 70 times 7.” “be a slave to Christ.” not human reasoning.

so, when scriptures repeat this counter-intuitive truth (that God gave women more gifts than should always be used) i have to believe it’s important. in my real life, i see how much better life is when God’s way is in practice.

God’s way is not abuse. God’s way should not be tossed aside because of sin. we are not “smarter than God.”

God gave men physical strength and edicts not to abuse it, He gave women gifts with instructions not to abuse, as well.
And, then, the many nuances. Many men are eloquent, gifted speakers+writers, the best chefs, tailors, et al.
God blessed various women in scriptures in unexpected, extraordinary ways.

There is sublime difference in God blessing at any given moment, versus man attempting to force exceptions/blessings by force of the sword (human law). The sorrowful results of the latter surround us.

Power in silence. i agree with you. it’s huge. for men and for women.

Think of Jesus!
He did not go about blabbering-away.
It’s nothing less than awe-inspiring, life-giving, proven in time lapsed after He ascended.
The NT is quizzically small in numbers of pages. Yet. Infinitely full of Light.

.. i once worked with a retired women’s basketball coach. we worked with the public. she advised me, when dealing with a couple, or family, one is likely to step forward “to do all the talking.” she described this person, male or female, to be probably warm and gregarious, probably giving the impression, “all is well,” everything is agreeable, no problems.

she warned, “watch the quiet one.”
she advised, the quiet one is most likely the one that will control the final decision, sign the check or not, or what have you.
i believe she even used the word, “power,” in context that the quiet one has the power.

i had not thought of it that way. i soon witnessed exactly what she described. it’s real. even tho it’s often not recognized.
people are drawn in by noise. but noise isn’t everything. not by a long shot.

the world is full of ignorance. when it comes to understanding the complexities+nuances of God, wow. not close.
the world is noisy! but not close to God’s wisdom.

the world attempts to use elementary “tit for tat” math to over ride God’s perfection (it could be comical) instead, it’s mostly tragic.

noise does not equal power. it often needlessly gives away power.
the same with physical abuse. it’s a primitive attempt to gain power, in the end, there is a price.
use restraint, don’t abuse God-given gifts.

[steve-in-kville]

Good post, T1.

Its always the quiet ones you have to watch

[Josh]

I've been in conversation with conservative Mennos and ex-conservative Mennos who are either questioning or rejecting these teachings because the harm it's caused in their own lives. I think that any kind of rigid order can easily be abused or misused. Even in the best cases, this teaching has a tendency to infantilize women and elevate men into "headship" who may not be competent or suitable for the role.

I've known elderly women who were so dependent on their husbands that after their husbands died, didn't know how to to basic life tasks, like how to pump gas into their car. I can't imagine how a rigid order that gives some people power or demands others submit simply on the basis of their genitalia doesn't end up enabling abuse.

My grandmother considered this (pumping gas) to be a man’s job. Same for paying the bill at a restaurant. Or choosing who to vote for in elections.

I would find it very entertaining tho if anyone claimed she didn’t know “basic life tasks”; she was on her own from an early age and spent part of the Great Depression growing her own food to eat.

[Josh]

If a woman is unmarried, she doesn't need to submit to a figure other then her parents and the church.

I think its wise for a single adult woman to seek advise from an older brother or the parents if they are still in the picture.

In my experience (at least in plain circles), single women are more than willing to seek help and advice from a wide variety of men: relatives, dad, uncle, cousins’s husband, the deacons, the preachers…