Interested in learning about Holdemans

[Ernie]

Holdemans have no concept you can “cancel” or “transfer” your membership. These are the only possible states a person can be:

#1. A non member who has never become a member. (This is most people.) This person may or may not be a born again Christian.

#2. A member who is a Christian.

#3. A member who has fallen into a sin so serious they are now spiritually dead. Excommunication is simply recognition by the church body that a person is spiritually dead.

#4. Extremely rare: someone who joined but had their membership annulled because they joined under false pretenses or was insincere. One woman claims she only joined to placate her husband to prevent him from trying to make their fam

Isn't there a number 5 and 6? I'm curious what percentage of Holdeman's would agree that the following is easily possible.

#5. A person who was a member of the church but left The Church, married another kingdom Christian (Bercot's definition) and is still born again.

#6. A couple who were part of the church but left The Church, are still kingdom Christian, and are still born again.

[mike]

I find interesting that Josh allows for the possibility of outsiders being born again Christians (something I think rank and file Holdemans would likely agree with) while saying that a member marrying such an outsider is worthy of being excommunicated. This gets at the question of what Holdeman Mennonites believe about salvation outside of their group, which ends up being a little more flexible than one might think, but at the same time shows the rigidity of their OTC view.

Wouldn't most conservative Mennonite churches excommunicate someone who married a born again Christian woman who wore pants, didn't cover her head, was supportive of Christians being involved in the military, etc.?

Yes, at some point, many of them would, as I would a person who claimed to still be a born again Christian but who is openly living in unrepentant sin. I think some conservative Anabaptist churches, the Amish and the Holdemans, take excommunication too far by excommunicating for no other reason than leaving for another church, even if that church is similar in faith and practice.

[Ernie]

I think some conservative Anabaptist churches, the Amish and the Holdemans, take excommunication too far by excommunicating for no other reason than leaving for another church, even if that church is similar in faith and practice.

Yes, I agree.
I think that all Christians who are kingdom Christian (Bercot definition), who are living in holiness & love, and show evidence of spiritual fruit, should commune together and consider each other brothers and sisters in the Lord. Shepherds in these churches should help each other grow greener grass, rather than gladly steal sheep from each other. If they aren't interested in growing greener grass, they should at least be glad if their sheep can thrive and flourish elsewhere rather than excommunicate them.

[ken_sylvania]

I find interesting that Josh allows for the possibility of outsiders being born again Christians (something I think rank and file Holdemans would likely agree with) while saying that a member marrying such an outsider is worthy of being excommunicated. This gets at the question of what Holdeman Mennonites believe about salvation outside of their group, which ends up being a little more flexible than one might think, but at the same time shows the rigidity of their OTC view.

Wouldn't most conservative Mennonite churches excommunicate someone who married a born again Christian woman who wore pants, didn't cover her head, was supportive of Christians being involved in the military, etc.?

I think most conservative Mennonites would consider a person such as you described to be somewhat of a rare species. Somewhat, although not entirely, along the lines of saying "a Christian woman who is a bank robber."

That being said, do you think that would actually result in excommunication vs. termination of membership?

[Ernie]

That being said, do you think that would actually result in excommunication vs. termination of membership?

In ultra conservative churches I think it would result in excommunication. In less conservative churches, I don't know what would happen.

[ken_sylvania]

That being said, do you think that would actually result in excommunication vs. termination of membership?

In ultra conservative churches I think it would result in excommunication. In less conservative churches, I don't know what would happen.

You would know better than I would.

[mike]

That being said, do you think that would actually result in excommunication vs. termination of membership?

In ultra conservative churches I think it would result in excommunication. In less conservative churches, I don't know what would happen.

You would know better than I would.

Even the ultra conservative Mennonites are still Mennonites, and they have less of a predisposition to excommunicate people than the Amish do, stemming all the way back to Hans Reist v. Jacob Amman.

[Ken]

In ultra conservative churches I think it would result in excommunication. In less conservative churches, I don't know what would happen.

You would know better than I would.

Even the ultra conservative Mennonites are still Mennonites, and they have less of a predisposition to excommunicate people than the Amish do, stemming all the way back to Hans Reist v. Jacob Amman.

I wonder when is the last time that a mainstream liberal MCUSA church excommunicated someone. And what was the reason for doing so. I’m sure it probably happens but it isn’t something that has ever happened within my orbit that I ever knew about.

[Josh]

Holdemans have no concept you can “cancel” or “transfer” your membership. These are the only possible states a person can be:

#1. A non member who has never become a member. (This is most people.) This person may or may not be a born again Christian.

#2. A member who is a Christian.

#3. A member who has fallen into a sin so serious they are now spiritually dead. Excommunication is simply recognition by the church body that a person is spiritually dead.

#4. Extremely rare: someone who joined but had their membership annulled because they joined under false pretenses or was insincere. One woman claims she only joined to placate her husband to prevent him from trying to make their fam

Isn't there a number 5 and 6? I'm curious what percentage of Holdeman's would agree that the following is easily possible.

#5. A person who was a member of the church but left The Church, married another kingdom Christian (Bercot's definition) and is still born again.

#6. A couple who were part of the church but left The Church, are still kingdom Christian, and are still born again.

#5 may exist but is so rare the topic never even comes up. People don’t leave the Holdemans and go join another plain church. It is extremely rare (although I can thing of a case or two).

#6 concerns a “couple”, I only concerned myself with individual people. Sometimes a whole family leaves. Again they rarely if ever join another plain church.

As an example, an older couple (that is divorced and remarried) joined the Holdemans in Lobelville. Eventually they were not content there and left. Now they are members of David Black’s church in Linden.

Would you consider them to born again and still kingdom Christian or not? I consider David Black’s members to be, as far as I can tell, sincere born again believers trying to live kingdom Christian lives.

[Ernie]

#6 concerns a “couple”, I only concerned myself with individual people. Sometimes a whole family leaves. Again they rarely if ever join another plain church.

As an example, an older couple (that is divorced and remarried) joined the Holdemans in Lobelville. Eventually they were not content there and left. Now they are members of David Black’s church in Linden.

Would you consider them to born again and still kingdom Christian or not? I consider David Black’s members to be, as far as I can tell, sincere born again believers trying to live kingdom Christian lives.

I don't know David Black.