Amish Covid | Full Measure

[Ken]

You can't find any empirical evidence that positively ties COVID measures with positively outcomes. Not vaccines, not lockdowns, not masking, not social distancing. None of it. In hindsight, it was all theatre.

Here you go. New Zealand, which implemented strict Covid measures of every sort compared against the United States, which did not. You have to look hard to see the New Zealand data but it is there along the bottom.



Or if you prefer, we can do a state by state comparison. Here are the Covid death rates for Vermont (the most vaccinated state) and West Virginia (the least vaccinated state)

[nett]

You can't find any empirical evidence that positively ties COVID measures with positively outcomes. Not vaccines, not lockdowns, not masking, not social distancing. None of it. In hindsight, it was all theatre.

Here you go. New Zealand, which implemented strict Covid measures of every sort compared against the United States, which did not. You have to look hard to see the New Zealand data but it is there along the bottom.

Or if you prefer, we can do a state by state comparison. Here are the Covid death rates for Vermont (the most vaccinated state) and West Virginia (the least vaccinated state)

Ok, so if death rates are all that matter, you'll need to correct for a lot of factors, not just throw out a few anecdotes. This has already been studied, on a macro, country level, there is no statistical significance that can be found. Denying statistics is not a good look, you should accept the science.

[Valerie]

You can't find any empirical evidence that positively ties COVID measures with positively outcomes. Not vaccines, not lockdowns, not masking, not social distancing. None of it. In hindsight, it was all theatre.

Here you go. New Zealand, which implemented strict Covid measures of every sort compared against the United States, which did not. You have to look hard to see the New Zealand data but it is there along the bottom.

Or if you prefer, we can do a state by state comparison. Here are the Covid death rates for Vermont (the most vaccinated state) and West Virginia (the least vaccinated state)

Ok, so if death rates are all that matter, you'll need to correct for a lot of factors, not just throw out a few anecdotes. This has already been studied, on a macro, country level, there is no statistical significance that can be found. Denying statistics is not a good look, you should accept the science.

We cannot even trust the death by Covid data. It is fake data. There were deaths attributed to Covid that should not have been- were other causes.

[Valerie]

More specifically, 6 foot separation accomplishes absolutely nothing at all. There is no reason to do it, nor any reason to keep up signs telling people to do it (which are mostly ignored).

The non-scientific basis for the six foot rule is one reason I’ve lost a lot of my trust in establishment “science” and institutions like the CDC; they just make stuff up.

Seriously Josh. You are a smart guy. What is your number if not 6 ft?

You do agree that Covid is a transmissible disease that is highly contagious between people in close contact? And that physical distance is one way to prevent transmission? Do you agree that prolonged close contact between two people at say 1 ft apart can easily lead to transmission of Covid? And that physical distance of say 100 ft or maybe 500 ft is sufficient to absolutely prevent any transmission of Covid?

So it is simply a matter of finding an intermediate point between those two extremes that serves as a good universal rule of thumb to prevent the bulk of easily preventable transmission. Maybe it should actually be 20 ft when you are indoors, and 5 ft when you are outdoors. Maybe it depends on the duration of the close contact and the degree of air circulation. There are hundreds of different variables. But you need to come up with one basic universal rule of thumb. What is it going to be if not 6 ft?

Or maybe you just abandon social distancing completely and go with universal mask use and universal use instead? What are YOUR solutions?

No social distancing, no masks, and no measures at all needed. Life goes on just fine. I’ve been doing this for over a year, as has virtually everyone I’ve been in contact with for the last year (which is hundreds if not thousands of people).

Weddings of 500 people? No problem. Funeral with 500+ people. No problem. Church every Sunday packed to the gills with 200+ people? No problem.

Some people want to get vaccinated, some don’t, and it’s a personal choice for each person. Virtually everybody I know has already had it.

Incidentally I’ve had more than the usual amount of funerals to attend the last year and a half - zero of them covid related.

Packed airplane, middle seats full, passengers with masks down eating and drinking snacks? Also no problem. Busy crowds in the BMV? No masks, no problem.

If I needed to go to the hospital, there isn’t a crisis to get care. This entire thing is a made up fake crisis, and you should rethink why you want to believe in it so badly.

You know we talked exactly like this until Neil and I got covid. As I said somewhere else I had let my guard down not taking my supplements diligently that I believe reinforced my immune system against the extreme exposure I'm constantly in to the public. But then in July I apparently was one of the early ones to get the variant and it's the first time in my life I was down for 2 weeks. It wasn't horrible but it could have been I suppose if I didn't normally take pretty good care of myself.

My husband is blood typo we heard was more resistant he did not catch it when I had it even though he was in close proximity to me the entire time especially since I had a negative test result which turned out to be a false negative.

Neil apparently contracted it mid September. Although he did not catch it when I had it he went to three public events where there was no social distancing so in other words he must have been in close proximity to someone who had covid. I truly believe if he had not been inflamed from an allergic reaction several days after being exposed, he may not have dealt with the consequences of an allergic reaction that affected his sinuses and most likely his lungs and what he breathed in, then his exposure to covid probably wouldn't have been as detrimental to his health as it became. Because we were treating his allergy not realizing it was covid we got a late start in addressing covid. The covid exposure could have taken his life. 3 weeks in the hospital for the first time in his life, and he is someone who had a long history of health issues however after being released after 3 weeks in the hospital he came home needing oxygen so we have three different types of tanks in our house.

I agree that there's been a lot of exaggeration, fake news, fake stories etc but I do know this we have been humbled in the fact that both of us contracted the very thing we were naysayers about. And that there's a lot of us around that have really paid the price I'm not sure what we would have done differently other than not let up on taking our supplements which kept the virus at bay for a year and a half.

I do consider, had we not been giving Neil the products that were supposed to help fight covid although a little late in the game, it may have prevented him from loss of life, and he never had to go on the ventilator, but almost 6 weeks into this he is still needing a walker from being down so long and the oxygen.

[mennonitemom1]

[ohio jones]

Here you go. New Zealand, which implemented strict Covid measures of every sort compared against the United States, which did not. You have to look hard to see the New Zealand data but it is there along the bottom.

The difference is that NZ locked down their borders earlier and more thoroughly than the US, and they remain shut (though perhaps not quite as firmly as Australia). This is the single most effective measure; if the virus doesn't get in, it can't spread.

Or if you prefer, we can do a state by state comparison. Here are the Covid death rates for Vermont (the most vaccinated state) and West Virginia (the least vaccinated state)

It looks like those are the total deaths, not the per capita numbers. Since WV is more populous than VT, adjusting for the population would make them look much more similar.

[Ken]

Here you go. New Zealand, which implemented strict Covid measures of every sort compared against the United States, which did not. You have to look hard to see the New Zealand data but it is there along the bottom.

The difference is that NZ locked down their borders earlier and more thoroughly than the US, and they remain shut (though perhaps not quite as firmly as Australia). This is the single most effective measure; if the virus doesn't get in, it can't spread.

Or if you prefer, we can do a state by state comparison. Here are the Covid death rates for Vermont (the most vaccinated state) and West Virginia (the least vaccinated state)

It looks like those are the total deaths, not the per capita numbers. Since WV is more populous than VT, adjusting for the population would make them look much more similar.

West Virginia's death rate is 239 per 100,000 population. Vermont's is 56 per 100,000 which makes West Virginia's death rate 4.3-times higher on a per-capita basis.

The point is that there are very real differences in Covid infection rates, hospitalization rates, and death rates across different jurisdictions that are attributable to the different public health measures that have been put into effect. Anyone who denies that is just not being serious. The relevant question is what combination of public health measures are optimal for combating Covid without unnecessarily damaging the economy or necessary freedoms. That is an interesting public policy question for which there are no universal answers because every situation and jurisdiction is different. But to claim as Nett or Josh do that there is zero relationship between public health measures and Covid rates is just not being serious.

[Josh]

Seriously Josh. You are a smart guy. What is your number if not 6 ft?

You do agree that Covid is a transmissible disease that is highly contagious between people in close contact? And that physical distance is one way to prevent transmission? Do you agree that prolonged close contact between two people at say 1 ft apart can easily lead to transmission of Covid? And that physical distance of say 100 ft or maybe 500 ft is sufficient to absolutely prevent any transmission of Covid?

So it is simply a matter of finding an intermediate point between those two extremes that serves as a good universal rule of thumb to prevent the bulk of easily preventable transmission. Maybe it should actually be 20 ft when you are indoors, and 5 ft when you are outdoors. Maybe it depends on the duration of the close contact and the degree of air circulation. There are hundreds of different variables. But you need to come up with one basic universal rule of thumb. What is it going to be if not 6 ft?

Or maybe you just abandon social distancing completely and go with universal mask use and universal use instead? What are YOUR solutions?

No social distancing, no masks, and no measures at all needed. Life goes on just fine. I’ve been doing this for over a year, as has virtually everyone I’ve been in contact with for the last year (which is hundreds if not thousands of people).

Weddings of 500 people? No problem. Funeral with 500+ people. No problem. Church every Sunday packed to the gills with 200+ people? No problem.

Some people want to get vaccinated, some don’t, and it’s a personal choice for each person. Virtually everybody I know has already had it.

Incidentally I’ve had more than the usual amount of funerals to attend the last year and a half - zero of them covid related.

Packed airplane, middle seats full, passengers with masks down eating and drinking snacks? Also no problem. Busy crowds in the BMV? No masks, no problem.

If I needed to go to the hospital, there isn’t a crisis to get care. This entire thing is a made up fake crisis, and you should rethink why you want to believe in it so badly.

You know we talked exactly like this until Neil and I got covid. As I said somewhere else I had let my guard down not taking my supplements diligently that I believe reinforced my immune system against the extreme exposure I'm constantly in to the public. But then in July I apparently was one of the early ones to get the variant and it's the first time in my life I was down for 2 weeks. It wasn't horrible but it could have been I suppose if I didn't normally take pretty good care of myself.

My husband is blood typo we heard was more resistant he did not catch it when I had it even though he was in close proximity to me the entire time especially since I had a negative test result which turned out to be a false negative.

Neil apparently contracted it mid September. Although he did not catch it when I had it he went to three public events where there was no social distancing so in other words he must have been in close proximity to someone who had covid. I truly believe if he had not been inflamed from an allergic reaction several days after being exposed, he may not have dealt with the consequences of an allergic reaction that affected his sinuses and most likely his lungs and what he breathed in, then his exposure to covid probably wouldn't have been as detrimental to his health as it became. Because we were treating his allergy not realizing it was covid we got a late start in addressing covid. The covid exposure could have taken his life. 3 weeks in the hospital for the first time in his life, and he is someone who had a long history of health issues however after being released after 3 weeks in the hospital he came home needing oxygen so we have three different types of tanks in our house.

I agree that there's been a lot of exaggeration, fake news, fake stories etc but I do know this we have been humbled in the fact that both of us contracted the very thing we were naysayers about. And that there's a lot of us around that have really paid the price I'm not sure what we would have done differently other than not let up on taking our supplements which kept the virus at bay for a year and a half.

I do consider, had we not been giving Neil the products that were supposed to help fight covid although a little late in the game, it may have prevented him from loss of life, and he never had to go on the ventilator, but almost 6 weeks into this he is still needing a walker from being down so long and the oxygen.

I meant hospitals (at least here in Ohio) can take care of other things (although they’re getting worse). Hospitals are terrible at treating covid. If you haven’t gotten pretreated with ivermectin, it’s basically a death sentence, particularly if you get put on a ventilator. Most people who go on ventilators die.

People who are elderly and have a history of other health problems often don’t make it, but that’s not unique to covid. Americans in general are unhealthy and not well prepared to handle any disease.

[Josh]

Here you go. New Zealand, which implemented strict Covid measures of every sort compared against the United States, which did not. You have to look hard to see the New Zealand data but it is there along the bottom.

The difference is that NZ locked down their borders earlier and more thoroughly than the US, and they remain shut (though perhaps not quite as firmly as Australia). This is the single most effective measure; if the virus doesn't get in, it can't spread.

Or if you prefer, we can do a state by state comparison. Here are the Covid death rates for Vermont (the most vaccinated state) and West Virginia (the least vaccinated state)

It looks like those are the total deaths, not the per capita numbers. Since WV is more populous than VT, adjusting for the population would make them look much more similar.

West Virginia's death rate is 239 per 100,000 population. Vermont's is 56 per 100,000 which makes West Virginia's death rate 4.3-times higher on a per-capita basis.

The point is that there are very real differences in Covid infection rates, hospitalization rates, and death rates across different jurisdictions that are attributable to the different public health measures that have been put into effect. Anyone who denies that is just not being serious. The relevant question is what combination of public health measures are optimal for combating Covid without unnecessarily damaging the economy or necessary freedoms. That is an interesting public policy question for which there are no universal answers because every situation and jurisdiction is different. But to claim as Nett or Josh do that there is zero relationship between public health measures and Covid rates is just not being serious.

You continue to cherry pick data. A place like NY/NJ had some of the harshest measured and yet high death rates. Other places like Ohio have almost no measures at all and lower death rates.

If you think NZ or Australia is some nirvana - then by all means, pack your bags and move there. The city of my birth remains under the world’s longest lockdown with virtually all civil rights lost. My brother can’t attend his son’s upcoming wedding. I can’t go visit my brother, unless I want to permanently move to Australia with no chance to come back to America and leave my wife behind in America.

No thanks.

[Ernie]

If I needed to go to the hospital, there isn’t a crisis to get care. This entire thing is a made up fake crisis, and you should rethink why you want to believe in it so badly.

Do you still feel this way, Josh. Two men in our church need surgeries and they keep getting postponed. They needed them in September. Looks like February will be the earliest they can get in. Another man in our church works in the ER. He was mostly caring for Covid ER patients because the hospital didn't have anyone else to care for them.