Haiti Kidnapping

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Dan Z

Re: Haiti Kidnapping

Post by Dan Z »

Interesting articles RZehr. We've gotten quite good at understanding all of this.

In kidnapping, there are no clear moral paths. I think a strong, stable society and a robust criminal enforcement apparatus will do a lot more to discourage kidnapping than policies on whether or not to pay a ransom - making it as costly a livelihood as possible. However, it does makes sense for countries and organizations to develop kidnapping policies to guide them, and to diminish undue attention from kidnappers. At the personal level, when it comes down to seeing your loved one again, families will generally do what they need to do in light of the leverage the kidnappers have over them. Platitudes aside, in the end, the value of life over material possessions seems to play a leading role here when it comes to a way forward.
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joshuabgood

Re: Haiti Kidnapping

Post by joshuabgood »

I wouldn't argue with paying the ransom. If it were my little girl, I would give everything I have.
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temporal1

Re: Haiti Kidnapping

Post by temporal1 »

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:41 pm I wouldn't argue with paying the ransom. If it were my little girl, I would give everything I have.

That’s the point. That’s how every decent person feels.
That’s why policies are needed, to protect people in their most vulnerable positions.

Kidnapping is a form of rape/murder. There are laws against it. Laws do not perfectly end either rape or murder.
Such laws are thought to be integral to societies.

i think it’s reckless to presume those favoring attempts to prevent crimes are heartless. i don’t accept that.
no one has to experience rape, murder, or kidnapping to adequately empathize with victims/loved ones.
these are primal, universal fears.

i see such suggestions as understandable part of the overwhelming emotions heinous crimes invoke.

leaders need to be compassionate - and clear-headed. i couldn’t do it.
God enables different people to meet different circumstances. Praise God for that.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Haiti Kidnapping

Post by Ken »

I rather doubt it. The expense of a rescue mission would be many-fold higher than just paying the ransom and would come with greater risk. It would no doubt require US soldiers to kill a lot of people standing in their way, some of whom are likely to be innocent bystanders. Especially given that this seems largely to be a for-profit kidnapping with an obvious solution as opposed to an ideological kidnapping with no obvious end-point such as the Iran hostages back in the Carter era, or some of the kidnappings in the Middle East.

That said, I would expect that if the US government is involved in negotiations, then part of the negotiations will possibly involve “if you cooperate and end this peacefully then you will come out of it a lot better than if it ends badly and the US government decides it it in the US interest to attack and destroy your organization after the fact”

It isn’t just the kidnappers who can threaten violence, seize assets, etc.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
temporal1

Re: Haiti Kidnapping

Post by temporal1 »


if it does, or it doesn’t, prayers for all involved. every one.

i happen to view this today, it expresses a lot of emotion from two very different and very gifted men.
as i watched and listened, my thoughts were all about this incident, and all of Haiti, as well.
i believe this performance is in Italy.

Stevie Wonder wrote: “Peace Wanted Just to be Free”

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temporal1

Re: Haiti Kidnapping

Post by temporal1 »

Lyrics. ^^ :)
Peace Wanted Just to Be Free
Song by Luciano Pavarotti and Stevie Wonder

Sweet woman child needn't cry anymore
Now we all know what you've long known before
Sad that it took all one's lifetime to see
Peace wanted just to be free
Strong man shall open your armor of fear
Your dreams of love is what brought this day here
Evil is lost and hate has deceased
Joy is of what we feast
For life can now live in world peace


Dormi piccino la guerra e finita
L'acqua ed il vento saranno con te
E poi cresci piccino nell'Africa unita
Dormi che noi siamo qui
Dormi noi siamo con te
Ritorneranno le danze e i colori
Continueranno per sempre con te
Ritroveremo profumi e i sapori
Piccolo amore
Per ogni stella che cade nel cielo
Un nuovo amore fiorisce laggiù
Bimbi che corrono e giocano i pace
E che non piangono più
E che non piangono

Sweet woman child needn't cry anymore
Now we all know what you've long known before
Sad that it took a world's lifetime to see
Peace wanted just to be free
Peace wanted just to be free
Soldiers have put down their weapons of war
Never to touch them again
All through the love, you can hear people sing
Where fighting has come to an end


Dormi piccino dell'Africa nuova
Armi e i soldati non urlano più
Sogna la notte di luci stellate
Dormi noi siamo con te
Dormi che noi siamo qui
Dormi noi siamo con te

Translate to English
Source: Musixmatch
Songwriters: Stevie Wonder
Peace Wanted Just to Be Free lyrics © Stevland Morris Music

i don’t know when this was recorded.
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Josh

Re: Haiti Kidnapping

Post by Josh »

Morally speaking, giving $17 million to a group of criminals in Haiti seems questionable.

How you can ensure they won’t use their newfound wealth and power to go kidnap and oppress many more Haitians? Because that’s exactly what will happen.
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steve-in-kville

Re: Haiti Kidnapping

Post by steve-in-kville »

As much as we like to strategize and game what should/could happen, I often have to remind myself: what if that was my family and a bunch of keyboard ninjas are deciding what should happen? Would reading about it online make me feel better?

This is directed toward myself as much as anybody.
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temporal1

Re: Haiti Kidnapping

Post by temporal1 »

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:54 am Morally speaking, giving $17 million to a group of criminals in Haiti seems questionable.

How you can ensure they won’t use their newfound wealth and power to go kidnap and oppress many more Haitians?
:arrow: Because that’s exactly what will happen.

Valid emotions, deliberately exploited by criminals.

Worsened by knowing, full-well, the U.S. routinely does plenty of funding of criminals, cartels, gangsters (thru U.S. Foreign Aid, which is pirated). Honduras Keiser describes it all too well:
Notice, HK suggests ENDING the practice! :shock: This is heady stuff he writes. :-|
temporal1 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:44 am
HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:52 am For what it's worth I posted this thought here 2&1/2 years ago and the sentiments are still the same but perhaps more articulate and speak to broader structural issues better than what I just posted in response to MikeF (this may also get to T1's query):

I’ve lived and worked in Honduras for 10 years both as a missionary, serving the very poorest of society and now as teacher, where I give philosophy and history classes to the children of the very wealthiest. I don’t pretend to be an expert on Honduran society and I certainly cannot claim to have many answers with respect to issues of immigration. The whole topic strikes me as far more complex and nuanced than what many voices on either the Right or the Left make it out to be.

Nevertheless, I know the milieu in which I live, I know why many poor Hondurans choose to emigrate illegally, I know why many wealthy Hondurans fly to Miami or Atlanta to give birth to their children and I know that all else remaining constant, this current caravan is only the beginning.

A poor Honduran lives his life with little to no hope of ever achieving anything approaching financial stability. The people I know make their livings off of garbage collecting, selling un-ripened bananas and day-laboring at construction sites. I’m particularly close with a group of young men and older boys that live in and around the municipal garbage dump of La Ceiba.

In many respects they are some of the happiest, most worldly-wise, most realistic people that I have ever met. Not much upsets them, they laugh often and give fully of themselves to whoever asks.

They also have absolutely no hope of a better future. They work hard, incredibly hard; rising before dawn to load up on either the banana or garbage trucks and not finishing work until late in the evening. For their efforts they manage to bring home about $5 a day with which they are expected to either help support their parent(s) or the family that they’ve started. Some in the garbage dump community also manage to study in the local public high school on the weekends. Their hope is that if they can manage to graduate high school, perhaps even college, that they will be more attractive to local businesses and thereby land jobs as sales clerks, cashiers or bank tellers. I haven’t the heart to tell them that all of their effort will likely be for naught as businesses simply don’t have the available positions to fill and that even if they did, business owners would never consider a public high school education worth anything compared to one from a private high school. The economy here is anemic, the currency is prone to inflation and the ability to open and maintain a small to medium-sized business is notoriously difficult both because of the endless and contradictory bureaucratic paperwork and because gangs often extort local proprietors until they have to shutter their operations. Government for its part is utterly corrupt; it actively steals from any and all available funds, including and most recently the Social Security fund. It refuses to maintain a proper infrastructure, protect its citizens from gangs and narco-traffickers, provide a decent public education or healthcare system and it has now begun to blatantly steal elections.

:arrow: This then is what drives the poor of Honduras to leave their country, their homes and their families.
Sure there are many fleeing direct threats of violence; I’ve known a few.
Most though leave because they simply have no future here, no hope of achieving what they see on the television, no hope of offering a better life to their children.

:arrow: Those of my friends that I’ve watched leave have never been eager to go, they were heart-broken at the prospect of leaving the friends and families behind and they always insisted that they’d return; they simply saw no other way of improving their lot in life. They recognized that Honduras as it is, as it is structured, keeps them permanently poor.

I am not sure what the solution is.
Nothing the United States does at the border will change Honduran society or diminish the impetus to emigrate. Life for 4.8 million Hondurans will still be a never-ending hamster-wheel of poverty. The government will still defraud its citizens at every turn. Gangs will still operate with impunity. Hondurans will still find ways to enter the U.S. illegally.
If the United States wants to to truly solve the immigration crisis, and a caravan/invading horde of 7,000 people is a crisis, it needs to make some difficult decisions that affect those that are in power here. It can begin by cutting off aid, every penny to this country. :shock:
The U.S. gave $67.8 million in military and development aid to Honduras in 2018. In 2017 it was over 100 million.
That money is not reaching its intended destinations; its being siphoned off to corrupt government officials at every level before ever reaching a worthy development project.


The U.S. should revoke travel visas of known corrupt officials.
Recently there have been a few prominent politicians to lose their U.S. entry visas, there should be many more, beginning with the President. Lastly, immigration law should change to make it more difficult for the wealthy of Honduras to fly to the U.S. to have their children and thereby procure for them birthright citizenship. Many of my students are U.S. citizens and haven’t the faintest inkling of what that means for them in terms of rights and attendant responsibilities. Such practices make a mockery of citizenship as a concept and make legal for the wealthy i.e. anchor-babies, the very thing that the poor are demonized for attempting to do.

These solutions, if you an call them that, may seem naïve and short-sighted. I know that it would not solve the structural problems here as such. I know too though that unless those that are in power have real and sustained pressure put on them, unless their access to unlimited funds is finally cut off, unless they are forced to truly reckon with what they’ve wrought in this country; Honduras will continue to produce thousands of émigrées every year and the U.S. will continue to fight this battle by proxy at the southern border.
K Harris AGREES with HK. :shock: :roll:
What conservatives have been saying all along. For decades:

“Harris on her approach to immigration: 'Most people don't want to leave home'
https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-tal ... nt-want-to
“They don't want to leave their grandparents; they don't want to leave the place where they grew up; where they, you know, they speak the language or they know the culture. The place where they're from the place that is home,” Harris continued.

“Most people don't want to leave home and when they do, it's usually for one of two reasons: they're fleeing some harm or they cannot stay and satisfy the basic necessities of life.” ..

:arrow: How deeply irritating when these matters could have been agreed+resolved LONG AGO.
:arrow: Politics, greed, power struggles sabotage.

It’s really hard for ordinary people to make heads/tails of all this.
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