Haiti Kidnapping

[Pelerin]

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/new ... 135727001/

According to a Friday story in the New York Times, "a senior security official in the region with knowledge of the kidnapping said that so far, none of the captives had been harmed. Christian Aid Ministries is currently gathering the ransom money, the official added."

Officials say a lot of things.

[Aurien]

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/new ... 135727001/

According to a Friday story in the New York Times, "a senior security official in the region with knowledge of the kidnapping said that so far, none of the captives had been harmed. Christian Aid Ministries is currently gathering the ransom money, the official added."

Officials say a lot of things.

Yes they do. Time will tell if this official's words were accurate.

[RZehr]

It’s kind of past any time to take a stand against paying ransom if the primary concern is that it will cause more kidnapping. Haiti is so far down the kidnapping-for-ransom track already, that not paying would be the aberration.
That train has left the station a long time ago. It was the locals paying ransom a year ago that caused more to happen; the gang just kept doing the economic thing to do, which was to kidnap more high value targets, eventually kidnapping the French priest and nuns for a good sized ransom. After that payday, why wouldn’t they grab Americans?

This event is just another step in a long culmination of Haitian kidnapping. Any talk of not paying for fear of future kidnapping was a conversation for last year, not today.
About 800 kidnappings in Haiti have happened so far this year, which is an increase from 800 for the whole of 2020. Haiti now holds the title for the highest per capita kidnapping rate on Earth. To not pay a ransom is like trying to stop a 100 mph runaway semi truck by placing a chock under the wheel. It’s way to late, with way to much momentum behind it. To think that taking a stand against paying in this case will make any difference in the future borders on narcissism. This event is merely a piece in a cog in the kidnappings of Haiti. Not even a whole cog, let alone the whole machine. It’s not about CAM, not about Americans. It’s merely about money. I know we sometimes sort of lose sight of that, particularly when it comes to the size of CAM. Not paying ransom in the past didn’t stop this. Not paying this time won’t make future kidnappers check if people work for CAM before they kidnap again.

Is CAM raising funds, or willing to pay? I have no idea at all. I wouldn’t put much stock in what some official claims.

[temporal1]

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/new ... 135727001/

Officials say a lot of things.

Yes they do. Time will tell if this official's words were accurate.

Correct.
No mature person would have mistaken your post for The Word of God. That doesn’t mean it was worthless.
i appreciate your presence.

It’s kind of past any time to take a stand against paying ransom if the primary concern is that it will cause more kidnapping. Haiti is so far down the kidnapping-for-ransom track already, that not paying would be the aberration.
That train has left the station a long time ago. It was the locals paying ransom a year ago that caused more to happen; the gang just kept doing the economic thing to do, which was to kidnap more high value targets, eventually kidnapping the French priest and nuns for a good sized ransom. After that payday, why wouldn’t they grab Americans?

This event is just another step in a long culmination of Haitian kidnapping. Any talk of not paying for fear of future kidnapping was a conversation for last year, not today.
About 800 kidnappings in Haiti have happened so far this year, which is an increase from 800 for the whole of 2020. Haiti now holds the title for the highest per capita kidnapping rate on Earth. To not pay a ransom is like trying to stop a 100 mph runaway semi truck by placing a chock under the wheel. It’s way to late, with way to much momentum behind it. To think that taking a stand against paying in this case will make any difference in the future borders on narcissism. This event is merely a piece in a cog in the kidnappings of Haiti. Not even a whole cog, let alone the whole machine. It’s not about CAM, not about Americans. It’s merely about money. I know we sometimes sort of lose sight of that, particularly when it comes to the size of CAM. Not paying ransom in the past didn’t stop this. Not paying this time won’t make future kidnappers check if people work for CAM before they kidnap again.

Is CAM raising funds, or willing to pay? I have no idea at all. I wouldn’t put much stock in what some official claims.

Using this logic, God wasted His time in sending His Son to earth. (i think) Jesus Christ and all of scriptures encourages the importance of “the first step,” no matter how small, with God’s blessing, has the potential to change things.

Prayers should be for God’s blessing and grace in every circumstance, trusting He, not evil, will prevail.
i believe you are an authentic believer. i have no doubt.

Haiti looks hopeless. But even Haiti is not greater than God.
i expect these 17 went because they (the adults) firmly believed this. i pray, in their captivity, they do not lose their faith.

i, also, have no idea what is transpiring. i don’t even ask. but i know what i pray for. God’s will be done.

[RZehr]

That reminds me of the fictional story of the drowning person who refuses to be saved by life savers, boats, and helicopter, because he believes God is going to save him, and utilizing those things he would rob God, and betray a lack of faith in God. When he arrives to heaven he finds out that God had sent those to his rescue. We can pray too, but I don't think it is good to refuse to utilize the money God has given us to help people with, to help people.

I suspect that if we look at kidnapping waves around the world, the thing that tamed them was probably the use of force, more so than a refusal to pay ransom. But I could be incorrect about that.

The Haitians are paying ransoms, taking out loans, selling assets, to pay ransoms to free their own people. But we think because we have a “policy” that we don’t have to bear any financial cost, but instead benefit from being American citizens and utilize the power and force and skill of the FBI and American armed forces instead?

[temporal1]

That reminds me of the fictional story of the drowning person who refuses to be saved by life savers, boats, and helicopter, because he believes God is going to save him, and utilizing those things would rob God and betray a lack of faith in God. When he arrives to heaven he finds out that God had sent those to his rescue.

We can pray too, but I don't think it is good to refuse to utilize the money God has given us to help people with, to help people.

I suspect that if we look at kidnapping waves around the world, the thing that tamed them was probably the use of force, more so than a refusal to pay ransom. But I could be incorrect about that.

Scriptures tell us to pray for our leaders - i’ve taken this literally since i was very young. All leaders, every level.
It’s not all glory, there can be heavy burdens. This is one of those horrifying times.

Decisions must be made, hopefully, these are men who rely on God to guide every step.

[Josh]

That reminds me of the fictional story of the drowning person who refuses to be saved by life savers, boats, and helicopter, because he believes God is going to save him, and utilizing those things he would rob God, and betray a lack of faith in God. When he arrives to heaven he finds out that God had sent those to his rescue. We can pray too, but I don't think it is good to refuse to utilize the money God has given us to help people with, to help people.

I suspect that if we look at kidnapping waves around the world, the thing that tamed them was probably the use of force, more so than a refusal to pay ransom. But I could be incorrect about that.

The Haitians are paying ransoms, taking out loans, selling assets, to pay ransoms to free their own people. But we think because we have a “policy” that we don’t have to bear any financial cost, but instead benefit from being American citizens and utilize the power and force and skill of the FBI and American armed forces instead?

One of the God-ordained roles of civil government is prevent things like kidnappings and ransoms. The Haitian government needs to do its job.

Considering they can’t even keep their President from being assassinated, at this point Haiti is clearly a failed state, which doesn’t really have any acting competent government.

To fix this is going to require the use of force and of government organised by its citizens using force effectively. This is something we as Anabaptists don’t need to be involved in.

[ken_sylvania]

That reminds me of the fictional story of the drowning person who refuses to be saved by life savers, boats, and helicopter, because he believes God is going to save him, and utilizing those things he would rob God, and betray a lack of faith in God. When he arrives to heaven he finds out that God had sent those to his rescue. We can pray too, but I don't think it is good to refuse to utilize the money God has given us to help people with, to help people.

I suspect that if we look at kidnapping waves around the world, the thing that tamed them was probably the use of force, more so than a refusal to pay ransom. But I could be incorrect about that.

The Haitians are paying ransoms, taking out loans, selling assets, to pay ransoms to free their own people. But we think because we have a “policy” that we don’t have to bear any financial cost, but instead benefit from being American citizens and utilize the power and force and skill of the FBI and American armed forces instead?

You seem to be implying that CAM is hoping/asking for the FBI and Special Forces to get involved and rescue these hostages by force. If this is based on actual knowledge, then it may be fair to say such a thing, but from my perspective it seems unfair to suggest that CAM's no-ransom policy is simply another example of Mennonite stinginess.

[RZehr]

In the first paragraph, I was responding to what I thought Temp seemed to be say. Which I understood to imply that doing anything beyond prayer was not trusting God; and that even if you are the 801st kidnapping, the “right” thing to do is still not pay a ransom, because it’s never to late to do the right thing.

I’m not at all convinced that (a) a ransom shouldn’t be paid, and even stronger convinced that (b) it would even make any difference in the future whether a ransom is paid or not. I seriously doubt criminals in Haiti and around the world keep an accounts receivable record to track who has paid and who hasn’t.

As you your question, no. I don’t believe CAM has done wrong or has wrong expectations of the government.

My last paragraph is sort of me just thinking out loud.
I’ve never known CAM to be stingy, rather the opposite. Nor do I think their policy is based on fiduciary concerns at all. I don’t feel really critical of CAM in this ordeal. I know they are working long hours and walking with the families, and are doing anything they can do to help this situation. And while I have my opinion on the matter, I actually trust CAM to do what is right and I know that they probably have more information than I have. And I think I can live with them not paying a ransom if that’s the way it goes. I don’t know if it will turn out best to pay them or not to pay them.
This will challenge the effectiveness of a no pay policy in conditions like this, and will merit some deep re-evaluation. Obviously many people, countries and businesses do pay ransoms. Why? And how does that effect their operations? I imagine a lot more precautions are taken. Maybe before CAMs board votes on keeping a no pay policy, the board members should try having their families kidnapped, or have this kidnapped groups families vote instead. I’m not being serious, but it really does make it look different.

[RZehr]

These are some really educational articles on the matter:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... faq-haiti/

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/j ... -insurance

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/p ... _PE277.pdf