Haiti Kidnapping

[Soloist]

My question is, what testimony does CAM project,when they ignore the United States Government's travel advisory and now that same government that they didn't listen to, has to spend man power and resources to get them to safety?

One thing, its an advisory... Another thing is I am sure they would still have gone even if the Government said "we will not bail you out of trouble"

[Ernie]

Latest Update from CAM:

https://christianaidministries.org/upda ... abduction/

Ernie,

When kidnapped, the group was returning from a visit to an orphanage that receives support from Christian Aid Ministries.

Is this talking about the Holdeman orphanage in Garncier? If so, is it correct that it receives support from CAM?

As far as I know, that orphanage was started by Haitian Holdeman members. Later in some Canadian Holdeman members got involved and donated funds and other support. As of about two years ago, they couldn’t ensure adequate security for Canadian and American volunteers and sent them all home.

Sorry but I have no idea.

[Grace]

My question is, what testimony does CAM project,when they ignore the United States Government's travel advisory and now that same government that they didn't listen to, has to spend man power and resources to get them to safety?

One thing, its an advisory... Another thing is I am sure they would still have gone even if the Government said "we will not bail you out of trouble"

You are right. But I think it projects a lousy testimony to the world. Especially since CAM sent missionaries with a baby and young children into an unsafe volatile nation.

[Ernie]

My question is, what testimony does CAM project,when they ignore the United States Government's travel advisory and now that same government that they didn't listen to, has to spend man power and resources to get them to safety?

One thing, its an advisory... Another thing is I am sure they would still have gone even if the Government said "we will not bail you out of trouble"

If CAM was asking the Government to bring the hostages home safely, then it would be a bad testimony IMO.

But as the CAM director said yesterday, there are two kingdoms. Both have ministers. Both have responsibilities. We as Christians do our job and they do their job.
As you have noticed in the public statements, the majority of the statement talks about God and prayer. That is who CAM is looking to for help. If the governments want to help God in some way, that is up to them.

Having said that, I've been around frontier missionaries long enough to know that many of them truly trust God to take care of them and they don't worry about the kinds of things most of us do. When they get into scrapes, they pray and try to find their way out of bad situation. From my "safety" perspective, some of them take this too far, but in the end, they stand before God. Who am I to judge? They don't need to answer to me. They get things done I would never get done.

[Ken]

I agree that these are good questions. I understand that, like WBT, CAM has a policy of not paying any ransoms. Some here may be old enough to remember what happened to Chet Bitterman, in Columbia. (I was a fairly new member of WBT at that time, and I remember where I was when I heard that he'd been killed by his captors.)

CAM may have a policy not to pay ransoms, but CAM isn't the only entity involved at this point. There are the families and home churches who may feel their interests are not the same as CAM's.

It has also been reported (In the NYT?) that this same exact gang recently kidnapped some Catholic priests and nuns and that apparently some ransom was paid to get them free. So they may be expecting the same thing here. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/19/worl ... ansom.html

My brother-in-law is an investment banker in Chile who manages investments across South America so frequently travels to places like Colombia. The bank he works for has kidnapping insurance for its employees but also strict security protocols. Earlier this year one of his younger colleagues disobeyed the security protocols on a trip to Bogota and left the hotel to go a nightclub where he got himself kidnapped. He was held in a nondescript apartment building (like an AirB&B for about 24 hours until they negotiated payment and released him. Apparently it was all very professional and they treated him well, like it was nothing personal, just business. Doesn't sound like Haiti is the same at all.

My point (possibly not very clear) was along the lines that if an organization pays a ransom, it puts a target on the back of every other member. It isn't about the money - it cripples all of their potential to do any work in any country around the world. (I say "any country", because nearly every country where WBT operates involves a degree of danger which exceeds that experienced in the "Western world".) If a family (or another entity) pays a ransom, that doesn't have the same ramifications.

I understand the principle. But do you think these sorts of criminal gangs are that discriminating? This is a gang that according to the news reports is responsible for 60% of the recent kidnappings in Haiti including local business elites and even policemen. Do you think if they saw a big van full of "gringos" entering their territory they are going to say "No....leave them alone because CAM has a policy of not paying ransom"

[Soloist]

Can you reach people if you are not willing to partake in the same risk?


We know its an obstacle to winning people to Christ when we go somewhere and sit in luxury while they scrap by a meager existence next door and I see this as a problem with CAM, but at the same time, the same thing applies with our children. Are we too good to risk our children in the same way as they are? are we too good were we need to use special boarding schools for our children? how are these single or old people suppose to relate to the poor families struggling with children in serious risk of disease and danger? are we going to rush back to the states despite their inability to escape danger?

Either way, even if we disagree with their decision to be over there or to have brought their children, it seems like now is not the time to point out all the mistakes we think they did to get in this situation. As Christians, our primary focus should be praying for them and supporting their families.

[Neto]

CAM may have a policy not to pay ransoms, but CAM isn't the only entity involved at this point. There are the families and home churches who may feel their interests are not the same as CAM's.

It has also been reported (In the NYT?) that this same exact gang recently kidnapped some Catholic priests and nuns and that apparently some ransom was paid to get them free. So they may be expecting the same thing here. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/19/worl ... ansom.html

My brother-in-law is an investment banker in Chile who manages investments across South America so frequently travels to places like Colombia. The bank he works for has kidnapping insurance for its employees but also strict security protocols. Earlier this year one of his younger colleagues disobeyed the security protocols on a trip to Bogota and left the hotel to go a nightclub where he got himself kidnapped. He was held in a nondescript apartment building (like an AirB&B for about 24 hours until they negotiated payment and released him. Apparently it was all very professional and they treated him well, like it was nothing personal, just business. Doesn't sound like Haiti is the same at all.

My point (possibly not very clear) was along the lines that if an organization pays a ransom, it puts a target on the back of every other member. It isn't about the money - it cripples all of their potential to do any work in any country around the world. (I say "any country", because nearly every country where WBT operates involves a degree of danger which exceeds that experienced in the "Western world".) If a family (or another entity) pays a ransom, that doesn't have the same ramifications.

I understand the principle. But do you think these sorts of criminal gangs are that discriminating? This is a gang that according to the news reports is responsible for 60% of the recent kidnappings in Haiti including local business elites and even policemen. Do you think if they saw a big van full of "gringos" entering their territory they are going to say "No....leave them alone because CAM has a policy of not paying ransom"

No, the opposite. If they get a ransom from the organization, they will do surveillance, and target them, because they know that they can collect the ransom. (Maybe it works this way more so with terrorist groups, like FARC, who took Chet Bitterman. But drug runners, too, I would imagine. And didn't you - maybe someone else - recently site some statistics about how much crime is drug related, or involves drug gangs?)

[Ernie]

If singles or married folks without children wanted to volunteer their services in dangerous countries, I'm sure CAM and other orgs would be glad to send such people. As was asked by someone else, should aid be withheld from poor people in risky situations because the volunteers have children? People in the US have gotten killed when they attempted to give aid to people in the US. Is it a mistake to lend aid in the US in risky situations?

[Ernie]

It looks like the Americans have friends among some Haitians.

https://apnews.com/article/business-cri ... 2a89088660

[Ken]

I understand the principle. But do you think these sorts of criminal gangs are that discriminating? This is a gang that according to the news reports is responsible for 60% of the recent kidnappings in Haiti including local business elites and even policemen. Do you think if they saw a big van full of "gringos" entering their territory they are going to say "No....leave them alone because CAM has a policy of not paying ransom"

No, the opposite. If they get a ransom from the organization, they will do surveillance, and target them, because they know that they can collect the ransom. (Maybe it works this way more so with terrorist groups, like FARC, who took Chet Bitterman. But drug runners, too, I would imagine. And didn't you - maybe someone else - recently site some statistics about how much crime is drug related, or involves drug gangs?)

I have no idea how much crime in Haiti is drug related. I discussed it on another thread but that was in reference to public defenders here in the US who's dockets are mostly filled with crimes that have some drug or substance abuse connection of some sort. Poor crime in the US is mostly drug or substance abuse related, not rich crime which is mostly financial-related.

As for kidnapping. My vague understanding is that when westerners are involved there are often specialized security firms that negotiate and pay ransoms and that the actual source of the funds is often deliberately obscured for the very reasons you cite. So if ransoms get paid in this instance it will likely be via some professional 3rd party intermediary and the origin of the funds may be a closely held secret.

It is all well and good to say that you aren't going to pay ransoms as a policy. But if it is your grand daughter being held by a criminal gang in Haiti and you have the means to negotiate her release I suspect principal is going to go right out the window.