A Thread to Raise Questions or Challenge Assumptions

[Ernie]

If you are not interested in tangling with people in the "briar patch", and don't want to clog or derail good threads on MN, but you do want to raise questions, want clarification on an insinuation, or want to challenge an assumption that is shared publicly on MN, this a thread for such things.

[Ernie]

I wonder if God is more likely to answer prayers if millions of people pray it after seeing it in the news media, versus just one person praying in their prayer closet.
0 x

Maybe God answers prayers of all praying and how can you say that many of the millions praying aren't praying in their prayer closet? God answers prayer.

Yes, but I don't think God is more likely to answer prayer because millions of people pray because something gets spread in the news media. I think God is just as likely to answer a single prayer from 1 or 2 people for a need, as he is to listen to millions of people praying because of an email prayer chain, or a big list, or because all the conservative Mennonites get worked up to pray for something relevant to their own people.

If we truly decided to "pray in secret" in our prayer closets, instead of "to be seen by men" as the "hypocrites do", we would refrain from vocally proclaiming how much we are praying for some current-events topic like this, or spreading around an email list, and so on. This is one of the less-desirable elements conservative Mennonites have absorbed from the broader evangelical culture.

If 17 Church of God in Christ Mennonite's were kidnapped, would you be fine with someone from your Church asking the Church of God in Christ Mennonite Church to pray? Or would you suggest that prayer requests only be made to relatives and the congregations of those from where the missionaries came from? Or maybe CoGiCM would not get themselves into a situation where someone could get kidnapped? Other?

From https://abcnews.go.com/International/17 ... d=80632346:

17 missionaries, including 5 children, kidnapped in Haiti, ministry says

The group was visiting an orphanage in the town of Ganthier.

The (mostly Canadian and American) Holdemans ran an orphange in Ganthier; my wife visited there two years ago. Due to the amount of unrest in Haiti, they gave up on trying to operate anything with Westerners involved earlier this year and all the Westerners went home. The native Haitians avoid the area and avoid travelling on the main roads because it's so dangerous. Most of the native congregations are in more remote mountainside areas which remain more calm, although travelling between them remains dangerous.

It would seem that Anabaptists may have to give up the idea of foreigners running Western-style organisations in Haiti, unless they also plan to start employing private security forces (like other NGOs in the area do), or else abandon their own ideals of nonresistance. Most NGOs in the third world use both private and public security and are more than willing to use deadly force.

I would posit that Haiti is a "closed door" for these kind of organisations and "mission work" going forward.

If the CoGiCM's had decided to stay in Haiti, and other Anabaptists left the country. Would you be making a public statement on MN in opposition to your Church's position? Or maybe your church would have made the right decision and the other Anabaptists made the wrong decision? Or maybe your church does not make wrong decisions? Other?

[Ernie]

On a different tangent. There have been many people who have gotten into trouble for not wearing a required mask during the Covid outbreak.
In Washington DC, "Everyone (including fully vaccinated people) must wear masks"
Except for Biden,when visiting an upscale swanky restaurant. "Rules for thee, but not me". The hypocrisy is astounding.

The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"

No judging, just facts. The president was inside a restaurant without a mask, a clear violation to the DC requirements.

Except for Biden,when visiting an upscale swanky restaurant. "Rules for thee, but not me". The hypocrisy is astounding.

This statement sounds very judgmental to me.

When I look at the picture of Biden, it feels to me like a fragment. It feels to me like one page. It feels to me like one word.

Do you know how many seconds or minutes Biden was not wearing his mask?
Was he taking it off or putting it on?
Why was he taking it off or putting it on?
Do people "get in trouble" for not wearing a mask if they forget when they are supposed to wear one or not wear one, are reminded to do so, and then they comply? I'm not aware that fines are issued to people who take off their mask for a few seconds or minutes but put them on when reminded to do so.
Is the D.C. law intended for absolute compliance, or is it something like the speed limit? Most places post a speed limit but allow people to go a few mph over.
If someone did get in trouble for what Biden did, and they appealed to Biden for consideration, do you think Biden would be really rough on him/her?

I don't have any reason to defend Biden in particular, but the accusations in your first post feel really over the top. (unless you have a lot of information about the situation that I do not)

[Grace]

When I look at the picture of Biden, it feels to me like a fragment. It feels to me like one page. It feels to me like one word.

Do you know how many seconds or minutes Biden was not wearing his mask?
Was he taking it off or putting it on?
Why was he taking it off or putting it on?
Do people "get in trouble" for not wearing a mask if they forget when they are supposed to wear one or not wear one, are reminded to do so, and then they comply? I'm not aware that fines are issued to people who take off their mask for a few seconds or minutes but put them on when reminded to do so.
Is the D.C. law intended for absolute compliance, or is it something like the speed limit? Most places post a speed limit but allow people to go a few mph over.
If someone did get in trouble for what Biden did, and they appealed to Biden for consideration, do you think Biden would be really rough on him/her?

I don't have any reason to defend Biden in particular, but the accusations in your first post feel really over the top. (unless you have a lot of information about the situation that I do not)

Biden was filmed by a fellow diner,walking through the restaurant with his security and others. His security were all wearing masks, and he was NOT, a clear violation to DC requirements. If thinking that Biden should follow the DC mask requirements is judging him, then so be it.

https://news.yahoo.com/video-biden-walk ... 00056.html
https://www.latintimes.com/joe-biden-vi ... one-490698
https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/maskless- ... k-mandate/
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bidens ... restaurant
https://www.outkick.com/watch-joe-jill- ... s-mandate/

[Valerie]

On a different tangent. There have been many people who have gotten into trouble for not wearing a required mask during the Covid outbreak.
In Washington DC, "Everyone (including fully vaccinated people) must wear masks"
Except for Biden,when visiting an upscale swanky restaurant. "Rules for thee, but not me". The hypocrisy is astounding.

The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"

No judging, just facts. The president was inside a restaurant without a mask, a clear violation to the DC requirements.

Except for Biden,when visiting an upscale swanky restaurant. "Rules for thee, but not me". The hypocrisy is astounding.

This statement sounds very judgmental to me.

When I look at the picture of Biden, it feels to me like a fragment. It feels to me like one page. It feels to me like one word.

Do you know how many seconds or minutes Biden was not wearing his mask?
Was he taking it off or putting it on?
Why was he taking it off or putting it on?
Do people "get in trouble" for not wearing a mask if they forget when they are supposed to wear one or not wear one, are reminded to do so, and then they comply? I'm not aware that fines are issued to people who take off their mask for a few seconds or minutes but put them on when reminded to do so.
Is the D.C. law intended for absolute compliance, or is it something like the speed limit? Most places post a speed limit but allow people to go a few mph over.
If someone did get in trouble for what Biden did, and they appealed to Biden for consideration, do you think Biden would be really rough on him/her?

I don't have any reason to defend Biden in particular, but the accusations in your first post feel really over the top. (unless you have a lot of information about the situation that I do not)

Sorry Ernie please explain to me the difference between you harshly judging Grace and consistently judging her, with what appears to be your opinion that she judges Biden? Scripture says judge not lest ye be judged the same judgment- could this be a case of that? It's pretty common for people to bring up the double standard in the left and our President should be no example it is the left that have been the loudest about mask mandates and yet the loudest ones have been the ones caught on camera of breaking their own rules while mandating them for everyone else.

[Ernie]

The links Grace posted do give some additional information so thank you for that.
I guess I am just amazed when people read some news articles and then they immediately begin passing judgment as if they know the whole story.
What goes around comes around. If we judge others harshly, with only limited information, we can expect people to judge us when they only have limited information about us.

If the Biden's apologize (like some other people have done who flouted mask mandates) I will assume they were in the wrong. Until then, I will assume they probably did something wrong, but I will not judge them until I know more of the story. I hope I can do the same for folks on MN.

[ohio jones]

If the Biden's apologize (like some other people have done who flouted mask mandates) I will assume they were in the wrong. Until then, I will assume they probably did something wrong, but I will not judge them until I know more of the story.

Since the White House press conference was referenced in another thread, here's the response to this issue. It appears an apology is about as likely as those porcine aviators that Grace mentioned elsewhere.

Q Thank you, Jen. There is a mask requirement inside D.C. restaurants, yet President Biden and the First Lady were not wearing masks while walking around a D.C. restaurant on Saturday. Why?

MS. PSAKI: Well, I think what you’re referring to is a photo of them walking out of a restaurant after they had eaten, masks in hand, where they had not yet put them back on yet.

So, I would say: Of course, there are moments when we all don’t put masks back on as quickly as we should, but I don’t think we should lose — miss — lose the forest through the trees here in that our objective here is to get more people vaccinated; make sure that schools and companies around the country can put in place requirements to save more lives and keep people safer; and, you know, not overly focus on moments in time that don’t reflect overarching policy.

Q It was not just exiting the restaurant, though. He was walking through the restaurant with no mask on. There is a carveout for people under two or people who are actively eating or drinking. So I’m just curious why the President was doing this.

MS. PSAKI: I think I just addressed it, Peter.

[Soloist]

If the Biden's apologize (like some other people have done who flouted mask mandates) I will assume they were in the wrong. Until then, I will assume they probably did something wrong, but I will not judge them until I know more of the story.

Q It was not just exiting the restaurant, though. He was walking through the restaurant with no mask on. There is a carveout for people under two or people who are actively eating or drinking. So I’m just curious why the President was doing this.

MS. PSAKI: I think I just addressed it, Peter.

I suppose saying the President was wrong is too humbling...

[Josh]

If 17 Church of God in Christ Mennonite's were kidnapped, would you be fine with someone from your Church asking the Church of God in Christ Mennonite Church to pray? Or would you suggest that prayer requests only be made to relatives and the congregations of those from where the missionaries came from? Or maybe CoGiCM would not get themselves into a situation where someone could get kidnapped? Other?

Thanks for asking these questions.

If we had a need like that arise, it would most likely circulate through various means to different church members. I am fine with those people praying. I am generally opposed to forming “prayer chains”, email lists, and organised “make sure everyone is praying at every hour to the day” type of activities. I would oppose them if they started to crop in my own circles, much like I express scepticism of using GoFundMe, MLMs, etc.

Our members in Haiti (including Westerners who married Haitian men) are in a really unsafe environment now. One such could got attacked in public recently, so now they feel they need to just stick to their home village. I expect a kidnapping situation to eventually happen to our people, too.

The (mostly Canadian and American) Holdemans ran an orphange in Ganthier; my wife visited there two years ago. Due to the amount of unrest in Haiti, they gave up on trying to operate anything with Westerners involved earlier this year and all the Westerners went home. The native Haitians avoid the area and avoid travelling on the main roads because it's so dangerous. Most of the native congregations are in more remote mountainside areas which remain more calm, although travelling between them remains dangerous.

It would seem that Anabaptists may have to give up the idea of foreigners running Western-style organisations in Haiti, unless they also plan to start employing private security forces (like other NGOs in the area do), or else abandon their own ideals of nonresistance. Most NGOs in the third world use both private and public security and are more than willing to use deadly force.

I would posit that Haiti is a "closed door" for these kind of organisations and "mission work" going forward.

If the CoGiCM's had decided to stay in Haiti, and other Anabaptists left the country. Would you be making a public statement on MN in opposition to your Church's position? Or maybe your church would have made the right decision and the other Anabaptists made the wrong decision? Or maybe your church does not make wrong decisions? Other?
[/quote]

I’ve expressed a sceptical attitude toward so many Western COGICM church members going to Haiti so much, and I’m not the only one. (Other members are in support of it.) As of right now, very few people from the West go to Haiti; it takes a lot of planning and is inherently unsafe.

Of course, the native Haitians remain there and continue to live there. They actually started and run the orphanage and I expect they will continue to do so.

I don’t think either Holdemans or other Anabaptists can operate NGOs and do traditional Western style mission work successfully in Haiti right now. Some very creative approaches may work, however.

[Ernie]

Thanks for answering, Josh.