Interested in learning about Holdemans

[Josh]

so what is the official holdeman view of marriage?

You could order a copy of Bible Doctrines and Practice, or if someone is terribly interested, I could write up the relevant sections. Or you could just find your nearest Holdeman affiliate and go ask one of their deacons or preachers. They're probably a better representative of the official Holdeman view than I am.

[justme]

so what is the official holdeman view of marriage?

You could order a copy of Bible Doctrines and Practice, or if someone is terribly interested, I could write up the relevant sections.

ordering a copy is an option, but it doesn't help the conversation here. A write up of the relevant sections would be very helpful.

Or you could just find your nearest Holdeman affiliate and go ask one of their deacons or preachers. They're probably a better representative of the official Holdeman view than I am.

that's certainly a possibility. but again, that doesn't help the conversation here.

[Ken]

so what is the official holdeman view of marriage?

You could order a copy of Bible Doctrines and Practice, or if someone is terribly interested, I could write up the relevant sections. Or you could just find your nearest Holdeman affiliate and go ask one of their deacons or preachers. They're probably a better representative of the official Holdeman view than I am.

I've never known Josh to be at a loss for words or shy with an opinion before. What is it that he doesn't want to see discussed here?

[Ken]

No, there isn't a concept of "less than full member". There are people who haven't joined our church, there are members, and then there are excommunicated members. That's all.

So is the only way out to be excommunicated?

[mike]

OK that last sentence is news to me. I thought (can't say why, other than I've been led to believe that by hearsay over the years) that the reason Holdemans allowed persons who were previously married and divorced to remarry was because the prior marriage was done outside of their church. I may be wrong about that.

A lot of conservative Mennonites seem to believe that Holdemans don't recognise marriages outside of their church, and make new members get officially married inside our church. It is not the case at all, but I have heard this from many different people.

I was not aware that Holdemans simply share the same view of marriage as the majority of Christians these days, who believe that the marriage bond can be broken, and subsequent marriages are acceptable even while previous partners are still living, and that membership in the Holdeman church has nothing to do with it. So are you saying this is the case? If so, I apologize for misrepresenting the Holdeman position.

The Holdemans hold the same position on marriage that other Mennonites did in 1859, and have never strayed from this practice. Since they split off from the rest of the Mennonite groups in 1859, they did not absorb changes that happened in the Mennonite world towards stricter views on divorce & remarriage in the early 1900s (nor did they absorb changes towards much looser standards as happened to more liberal Mennonites in the 1950s and beyond).

Thanks for the information. I would be interested in more information about what their criteria is for the allowance of divorce and remarriage. This is all that their official website says on the topic:

13. Holy Matrimony
Marriage was divinely instituted for the propagation, purity, and happiness of the human race. God sanctions marriage between one man and one woman only. Marriage in the church is only permitted between members.1 Corinthians 7:39; Genesis 2:18; Nehemiah 13:24-31; Mark 10:2-12; Romans 7:2; Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:3-12

I assume this means that marrying someone outside the Holdeman church is grounds for excommunication?

[mike]

Josh, are justme, Ken, and I going to have our questions answered in this thread?

[Josh]

so what is the official holdeman view of marriage?

You could order a copy of Bible Doctrines and Practice, or if someone is terribly interested, I could write up the relevant sections. Or you could just find your nearest Holdeman affiliate and go ask one of their deacons or preachers. They're probably a better representative of the official Holdeman view than I am.

I've never known Josh to be at a loss for words or shy with an opinion before. What is it that he doesn't want to see discussed here?

When I locate a copy of The Mirror of Truth, Bible Doctrines and Practice, and the Articles of Faith / Conference Decisions booklet, l’ll type out here the relevant sections from each.

[Josh]

OK that last sentence is news to me. I thought (can't say why, other than I've been led to believe that by hearsay over the years) that the reason Holdemans allowed persons who were previously married and divorced to remarry was because the prior marriage was done outside of their church. I may be wrong about that.

A lot of conservative Mennonites seem to believe that Holdemans don't recognise marriages outside of their church, and make new members get officially married inside our church. It is not the case at all, but I have heard this from many different people.

I was not aware that Holdemans simply share the same view of marriage as the majority of Christians these days, who believe that the marriage bond can be broken, and subsequent marriages are acceptable even while previous partners are still living, and that membership in the Holdeman church has nothing to do with it. So are you saying this is the case? If so, I apologize for misrepresenting the Holdeman position.

The Holdemans hold the same position on marriage that other Mennonites did in 1859, and have never strayed from this practice. Since they split off from the rest of the Mennonite groups in 1859, they did not absorb changes that happened in the Mennonite world towards stricter views on divorce & remarriage in the early 1900s (nor did they absorb changes towards much looser standards as happened to more liberal Mennonites in the 1950s and beyond).

Thanks for the information. I would be interested in more information about what their criteria is for the allowance of divorce and remarriage. This is all that their official website says on the topic:

13. Holy Matrimony
Marriage was divinely instituted for the propagation, purity, and happiness of the human race. God sanctions marriage between one man and one woman only. Marriage in the church is only permitted between members.1 Corinthians 7:39; Genesis 2:18; Nehemiah 13:24-31; Mark 10:2-12; Romans 7:2; Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:3-12

I assume this means that marrying someone outside the Holdeman church is grounds for excommunication?

Yes, for people who are already members.

As far as I know, this is the same stance other conservative Anabaptist groups take, although some don’t go so far as excommunication. My nephew and his girlfriend can’t get married until they have the minister’s permission. (They are both members in the same church fellowship as appleman, silentreader, etc.)

[mennonitemom1]

Hi, I have heard that the Holdemans Mennonites are a very traditional branch of Mennonites. I am interested in visiting and possibly joining if I like it and can be of one mind with their key doctrines and practices. Are they thriving? someone in a video on youtube suggested they are declining and becoming "worldly" while I read elsewhere that they are growing in numbers and are one of the strongest groups at maintaining uniformity and membership.

Im familiar with conservative Mennonite churches , how do holdeman Mennonites compare to conservative Mennonites culturally?
how do holdemans approach social media and technology, is it popular to use social media, discouraged or restricted?
If you are a holdeman any fun or interesting stories that can illustrate similarities and differences or aspects you find unique?
Do they separate unmarried people from married people into the same youth structure as conservative Mennonites, what would it be like participating in youth in a holdeman Mennonite church?
What is it like being a member and working for someone in the church vs a member working for an employer outside the church?
how welcoming are they to people seeking to join a church like theirs?
how are the services are operated, how are the relationships between the leadership and the membership expected to be?

I love it… It really reminds me of Paul’s epistles and therefore seems very biblical to me… that’s the most important thing to me… is that they are biblical… also that they match up with the early church fathers…(which for the most part, they do.)

[mike]

I assume this means that marrying someone outside the Holdeman church is grounds for excommunication?

Yes, for people who are already members.

As far as I know, this is the same stance other conservative Anabaptist groups take, although some don’t go so far as excommunication. My nephew and his girlfriend can’t get married until they have the minister’s permission. (They are both members in the same church fellowship as appleman, silentreader, etc.)

The Amish would generally excommunicate a church member for marrying someone outside the Amish at least if it involved leaving the Amish church in so doing. Other than that, I don't know that other conservative Anabaptist churches would excommunicate a church member solely for marrying someone outside their denomination. There are frequent marriages across denominational lines in conservative Anabaptist groups, and frequent migration between groups. For example, five or so families in our local Hope Fellowship congregation were formerly Pilgrim Conference members who moved into the area or changed churches. All without any excommunications.

From what I understand, Holdeman Mennonites would excommunicate a young lady if she married someone from, say Pilgrim Mennonite Conference, and went to his church. I don't think this is a common practice at all among conservative Anabaptists. If a member married a spouse from another group, there would be varied feelings about it if that group were significantly less conservative than the denomination they were leaving, but I would think excommunication for doing so would be rare or even almost nonexistent.

There's also a difference between forfeiting one's church membership and being excommunicated. If a church requires its members to have permission from the ministers before marrying someone, and they proceed without that, it could well be they might forfeit their membership. This doesn't mean they are necessarily excommunicated.