Discipline measures your church uses? (And public confessions?)

[Ken]

I absolutely agree with you; I often wonder if I am doing more harm than good when I force my older kids to apologize to one another after some sort of squabble.

FWIW, We ask our children to acknowledge that they did the wrong thing, but we do not ask them to apologize.

When my kids were young I would make them find their own solutions to their own squabbles. If a particular toy was causing a problem I would just confiscate it until they worked out their own solution and made peace and then they could come to me and explain what solution they found (sharing, taking turns, playing together, etc.) and how they had solved the problem. That didn’t necessarily involve me asking them to apologize. More often it involved them being forced to work together to convince me that they had resolved on their own whatever problem had led to the spat in the first place. I made sure that getting dad involved was always more painful than working things out amongst themselves. I also wanted to foster a life-long sense of sisterly camaraderie because dad and mom aren’t always going to be around.

As for church? I dislike and disapprove of any sort of public confessions that put people on the spot. I don’t think the Catholic Church approach of private confessions is necessarily right either, but it is better than dragging people out in front of the whole congregation. Everyone is a sinner in some way. I don’t think it is for us to decide which sins necessarily merit public displays and which do not. That said, if some church member has publicly wronged the whole congregation in some way and feels compelled on their own to offer a public confession and ask for forgiveness I wouldn’t necessarily object. But I think that sort of thing should be rare indeed and not any sort of regular thing. I have not been a part of a church that has had any sort of public discipline and would not want to be.

[Josh]

Public confessions (or announcements) are pretty important for sins that affect everybody.

In cases of serious abuse, e.g. sexual abuse, a lot of people have just swept this under the rug. Situations like this need to be brought before the entire congregation and announced, publicly. And if the perpetrator claims he has repented, he needs to confess his sin in front of the entire congregation and express his willingness to be kept accountable.

[Ken]

Public confessions (or announcements) are pretty important for sins that affect everybody.

In cases of serious abuse, e.g. sexual abuse, a lot of people have just swept this under the rug. Situations like this need to be brought before the entire congregation and announced, publicly. And if the perpetrator claims he has repented, he needs to confess his sin in front of the entire congregation and express his willingness to be kept accountable.

The problem with what you suggest is twofold.

First, crimes like sexual abuse doesn’t actually affect everybody. And in the case of child sexual abuse, might not actually affect a single adult person in the congregation. In fact, the victims may not actually want the whole thing aired in public. So a big public show of confession and contrition might actually just be re-traumatizing the actual victims of the crime, who aren’t the whole congregation.

Second, these public demonstrations of confession and contrition are often used to REPLACE or obstruct the criminal justice system in the case of the perpetrator, and the professional mental health system in the case of the victims. I don’t think that is appropriate in either case.

For crimes or sins that were actually perpetrated against the ENTIRE congregation. Like, for example someone who embezzled church funds or abused a position of leadership within the congregation then that is different and a public confession might be more appropriate.

[Josh]

Public confessions (or announcements) are pretty important for sins that affect everybody.

In cases of serious abuse, e.g. sexual abuse, a lot of people have just swept this under the rug. Situations like this need to be brought before the entire congregation and announced, publicly. And if the perpetrator claims he has repented, he needs to confess his sin in front of the entire congregation and express his willingness to be kept accountable.

The problem with what you suggest is twofold.

First, crimes like sexual abuse doesn’t actually affect everybody.

Yes, they do. An unrepentant abuser tends to abuse everyone else any way he can. It's bad to have violent sociopaths running around.

And in the case of child sexual abuse, might not actually affect a single adult person in the congregation. In fact, the victims may not actually want the whole thing aired in public. So a big public show of confession and contrition might actually just be re-traumatizing the actual victims of the crime, who aren’t the whole congregation.

Doesn't matter. The entire problem is the silence.

Second, these public demonstrations of confession and contrition are often used to REPLACE or obstruct the criminal justice system in the case of the perpetrator, and the professional mental health system in the case of the victims. I don’t think that is appropriate in either case.

I would argue these public demonstrations should often go alongside a repentant abuser being willing to go turn themselves in, and making a public statement makes it MUCH harder for them to backpedal later.

The public confession isn't a punishment. It's rather a restorative process, something an evildoer can do in order to show he's truly changed and the start of reconciling/restoring those he's wronged.

[/quote]For crimes or sins that were actually perpetrated against the ENTIRE congregation. Like, for example someone who embezzled church funds or abused a position of leadership within the congregation then that is different and a public confession might be more appropriate.
[/quote]

Well, I have a view of a church body and church membership where we are all one body, and when one member suffers, we all suffer. I guess if you don't want to be part of a close knit church like that, then yes, you can have a church where there are "private" sins.

[Ken]

Every church congregation has plenty of private sins Josh, including yours. Unless you spend hours every Sunday doing nothing but listening to everyone confess to every one of them, I’m guessing most of them do stay private.

[Josh]

Every church congregation has plenty of private sins Josh, including yours. Unless you spend hours every Sunday doing nothing but listening to everyone confess to every one of them, I’m guessing most of them do stay private.

This encapsulates precisely the difference between Dutch Anabaptism and other religions.

We really do believe one’s sins need to be confessed to one’s brethren and repented of and that a pure church is both possible and desirable.

[Ken]

Every church congregation has plenty of private sins Josh, including yours. Unless you spend hours every Sunday doing nothing but listening to everyone confess to every one of them, I’m guessing most of them do stay private.

This encapsulates precisely the difference between Dutch Anabaptism and other religions.

We really do believe one’s sins need to be confessed to one’s brethren and repented of and that a pure church is both possible and desirable.

There are at least 125 different sins listed in the New Testament https://truediscipleship.com/official-l ... testament/ and something like 600 listed at various points in the Old Testament.

I seriously doubt that despite your efforts, your congregation is catching and publicly confessing to every last one of them.

[Josh]

Every church congregation has plenty of private sins Josh, including yours. Unless you spend hours every Sunday doing nothing but listening to everyone confess to every one of them, I’m guessing most of them do stay private.

This encapsulates precisely the difference between Dutch Anabaptism and other religions.

We really do believe one’s sins need to be confessed to one’s brethren and repented of and that a pure church is both possible and desirable.

There are at least 125 different sins listed in the New Testament https://truediscipleship.com/official-l ... testament/ and something like 600 listed at various points in the Old Testament.

I seriously doubt that despite your efforts, your congregation is catching and publicly confessing to every last one of them.

Thus was the debate between the apostate state church and the Dutch Anabaptists. I’ve cast in my lot with the latter.

[Laurell]

I feel like every post that I have participated on thus far in MN ends up being a Josh vs Ken debate until they move on to the next thread.

Maybe they need their own topic board....

[Ken]

I feel like every post that I have participated on thus far in MN ends up being a Josh vs Ken debate until they move on to the next thread.

Maybe they need their own topic board....

I'll see myself out. You guys talk about whatever you want here..