To beard or not to beard

[Josh]

I have spent my adult life trying to hold the line, preserving my adopted culture. We must hold the line. Yeah, sometimes things seem extra biblical, but it is important to over emphasize at times for the cause.

Fast forward. My adult daughter tells me a great number of her Mennonite friends were in some way sexually molested. There are some other really devastating things she has heard about and seen (not just sexual molestation). Me too.

She chose to go to a different church. Do I worry what will become of her children? Yeah, I do. Do I blame her for being disgusted by hypocrites who treat others unBiblically but hold to outward displays that seem to demonstrate loyalty to "the church" (and by extension, God)? No, I don't.

What in the world? What is this culture I have helped to preserve?

Plain people don’t have higher (or lower) rates of abuse than other cultures and groups of people as a whole.

Lack of proper church discipline and excusing death sins is not a a reason to leave Christianity or to go to a worldly church. In my own life, I left a church with improper church discipline with a notorious adulterer and molesterer... and ended up at a more conservative church. But one with a much more solid record on handling this kind of gross sin.

Do you have any adult children?

I was much wiser and sure when mine were small.

Exactly what are you claiming?

[steve-in-kville]

If you are in any conservative church, you cannot tell me you have never heard the incredulous comments about some lady and her relationship with the covering (on, off, big, small). We fancy ourselves as being able to tell her spiritual standing.

Yup.

When my wife went from a mesh cap style covering to a tie-on veil there were various crude comments made by family. Almost like it wasn't considered a "real" covering anymore. And don't tell me about going from cape dress to denim skirts We thought for sure some heads were gonna explode

My family is looking at the possibility of going the opposite direction with the head covering, from an opaque hanging veil to the transparent mesh-style, because of a church change. A few of the comments we have heard are apologetic, acknowledging that the opaque veil is a better actual covering than the transparent kapp-style a lot of Mennonites wear.

Too bad we don't have a thread on the headcovering right now

[mike]

My family is looking at the possibility of going the opposite direction with the head covering, from an opaque hanging veil to the transparent mesh-style, because of a church change. A few of the comments we have heard are apologetic, acknowledging that the opaque veil is a better actual covering than the transparent kapp-style a lot of Mennonites wear.

There probably isn’t a rule against opaque kapps... if that was truly someone’s concern who is pushing for hanging veils.

There isn't, but almost nobody wears them.

I have yet to hear the hanging-veil people explain how they won’t all end up with doily coverings, and then none, in a generation or two. They just pretend this phenomenon doesn’t exist.

Of course it exists, as does the phenomenon of churches who mandate kapp (or any other) style of head coverings and have those coverings often end up smaller over time. This doesn't mean all churches are on these trajectories, though.

There are examples of churches that have practiced the hanging veil for several generations and they don't appear to be trending toward "doilies" or no coverings. I could list some for you if you wanted to.

[mike]

Yup.

When my wife went from a mesh cap style covering to a tie-on veil there were various crude comments made by family. Almost like it wasn't considered a "real" covering anymore. And don't tell me about going from cape dress to denim skirts We thought for sure some heads were gonna explode

My family is looking at the possibility of going the opposite direction with the head covering, from an opaque hanging veil to the transparent mesh-style, because of a church change. A few of the comments we have heard are apologetic, acknowledging that the opaque veil is a better actual covering than the transparent kapp-style a lot of Mennonites wear.

Too bad we don't have a thread on the headcovering right now

you guys started it

[Josh]

My family is looking at the possibility of going the opposite direction with the head covering, from an opaque hanging veil to the transparent mesh-style, because of a church change. A few of the comments we have heard are apologetic, acknowledging that the opaque veil is a better actual covering than the transparent kapp-style a lot of Mennonites wear.

There probably isn’t a rule against opaque kapps... if that was truly someone’s concern who is pushing for hanging veils.

There isn't, but almost nobody wears them.

I have yet to hear the hanging-veil people explain how they won’t all end up with doily coverings, and then none, in a generation or two. They just pretend this phenomenon doesn’t exist.

Of course it exists, as does the phenomenon of churches who mandate kapp (or any other) style of head coverings and have those coverings often end up smaller over time. This doesn't mean all churches are on these trajectories, though.

There are examples of churches that have practiced the hanging veil for several generations and they don't appear to be trending toward "doilies" or no coverings. I could list some for you if you wanted to.

But it’s also quite rare. Thus, I respect the traditionalist who wishes to stay with what they have instead of “embrace change”.

My own church has solid kapps, but for church on Sunday, a much larger tied down veil is used.

[steve-in-kville]

My family is looking at the possibility of going the opposite direction with the head covering, from an opaque hanging veil to the transparent mesh-style, because of a church change. A few of the comments we have heard are apologetic, acknowledging that the opaque veil is a better actual covering than the transparent kapp-style a lot of Mennonites wear.

Too bad we don't have a thread on the headcovering right now

you guys started it

Yeah, I guess we kinda did

[mike]

But it’s also quite rare. Thus, I respect the traditionalist who wishes to stay with what they have instead of “embrace change”.

My own church has solid kapps, but for church on Sunday, a much larger tied down veil is used.

Have Holdeman Mennonite covering styles/sizes changed over time?

One of my minor annoyances with some Mennonite rules is the ones that only apply when you go to church, such as only certain colors of vehicles may be driven to church, while a broader range is fine for other uses; or, certain colors of shoes must be worn to church, while other colors are fine for other occasions.

[steve-in-kville]

The car thing was always an amusement to me, especially with EPMC and pilgrim. It was okay to have a late model VW beetle but wasn't okay to buy a classic as it would draw too much attention.

[ABC 123]

Josh, you do realize that statistically "outsiders" have a very low chance of surviving in the Mennonite culture.

How long have you been at your current church? How many have you already been to? You are tracking statistically with "what usually happens to outsiders".

But you could defy the odds. Some do.

I just think you may reassess some of your strong stances later with age and experience. I know it looks improbably. I have been there.

[Josh]

But it’s also quite rare. Thus, I respect the traditionalist who wishes to stay with what they have instead of “embrace change”.

My own church has solid kapps, but for church on Sunday, a much larger tied down veil is used.

Have Holdeman Mennonite covering styles/sizes changed over time?

One of my minor annoyances with some Mennonite rules is the ones that only apply when you go to church, such as only certain colors of vehicles may be driven to church, while a broader range is fine for other uses; or, certain colors of shoes must be worn to church, while other colors are fine for other occasions.

A smaller kapp is felt appropriate for everyday wear. For formal worship services, more formal clothing is worn, and a more explicit “head covering” is worn (as opposed to a smaller, more symbolic covering).

For reference, until the 1950s, Holdemans didn’t wear coverings at all outside of church services.

I don’t see a problem at all at wearing more formal attire to formal worship services.