To beard or not to beard

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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ken_sylvania

Re: To beard or not to beard

Post by ken_sylvania »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:11 am
Neto wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:57 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:32 am
Mustaches as military fashion was largely a 19th Century thing and was largely out of style by WW1.
The "Clark Gable mustache" was a very popular among military guys in WWII.
You can google search images of WW2 soldiers and see that very very few had mustaches: https://www.google.com/search?as_st=y&t ... &tbs=isz:l

They weren't particularly common in WW1 either: https://www.google.com/search?as_st=y&t ... &tbs=isz:l

You have to go back to about the Spanish American War in 1898 or even the Civil War to start finding lots of mustaches on soldiers and even then it was hardly universal: https://www.google.com/search?as_st=y&t ... &tbs=isz:l
I think one of the most well-known military individuals associated with WW2 had a prominent mustache.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: To beard or not to beard

Post by Ken »

And Hitler was whipped by these guys who were the generals in the combined Supreme Allied Command in WW2. I stand by my contention that mustaches in the military largely went out of fashion by the end of the 19th Century. And that if some conservative Anabaptist groups forbid mustaches because they are "militaristic" they are reacting to military fashion from the Victorian age, not anything from today or even the past century.

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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: To beard or not to beard

Post by Josh »

ABC 123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:53 am Ok, I am going to word this carefully. I mean no snark.

How can we say we believe that Salvation is not of works but through Jesus and then say (anything) is a "salvation" issue? Plug in anything you want, like the beard or obedience to (this or that church),
Is murdering your neighbour a “salvation issue”?

Is denying that Jesus is your saviour and the son of God a “salvation issue”?

Is committing adultery, and lying to cover it up, and then not supporting your illegitimate children, a “salvation issue”?

The Bible says no murderers, adulterers, or blasphemers will be in heaven. Is this “works salvation”?
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ABC 123

Re: To beard or not to beard

Post by ABC 123 »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:37 am
ABC 123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:53 am Ok, I am going to word this carefully. I mean no snark.

How can we say we believe that Salvation is not of works but through Jesus and then say (anything) is a "salvation" issue? Plug in anything you want, like the beard or obedience to (this or that church),
Is murdering your neighbour a “salvation issue”?

Is denying that Jesus is your saviour and the son of God a “salvation issue”?

Is committing adultery, and lying to cover it up, and then not supporting your illegitimate children, a “salvation issue”?

The Bible says no murderers, adulterers, or blasphemers will be in heaven. Is this “works salvation”?
The things you list are moral issues not performance issues.
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steve-in-kville

Re: To beard or not to beard

Post by steve-in-kville »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:19 am Those today who are not tend to be special forces types who wear full beards.
Bonus points if know why 8-)
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Heirbyadoption

Re: To beard or not to beard

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:19 amSure, some people wore mustaches. But by far most troops were clean shaven by WW1 and still are. Those today who are not tend to be special forces types who wear full beards. The point I am making is that the conservative Anabaptist prohibition on mustaches because they are "military" or a "soldier's fashion" is really a reaction to the 19th Century when mustaches actually were military fashion and some forces like the British actually mandated them. But that notion is really 150 years out of date. In other words, they are reacting to Civil War and Franco-Prussian war fashions, not anything in the living memory of even our grandparents.
In fact, much of the traditional Anabaptist aversion to mustaches (where it has existed) seems to perhaps even a century or two farther back to the various European militaries and mercenaries, if we're talking about cultural memory. I have a couple books at home that offer some interesting historical documentation on these.

Just a couple thoughts while I'm here. I realize you (Ken) rather clearly expressed your opinion regarding the irrelevance of the beard/mustache question earlier, and certainly everybody is entitled to their opinion. Having said that, referring to the practice / treatment of said subject by groups such as MCUSA and CMC seems somewhat irrelevant as well considering their multi-decade shift away from much of traditional (and yes, cultural) Anabaptism which continues to place value on a large variety of practical applications, including questions like beards and mustaches which relate specifically to appearance.

I'm certainly not suggesting you should leave the discussion or anything; it just seems worthwhile to recognize that such a dismissal or downplaying of value on the subject seems awfully irrelevant coming from the former... But I might be all wet on that, and I'd be interested in hearing why you feel that complete disconnect (by anabaptist groups moving in a more progressive direction) is justified, and (by logical continuance) why you would encourage others to share that same position of dismissal on the subject of whether there is value in encouraging Christian men to wear beards and consider aspects like the mustache and its potential connection with or against less desirable aspects in the broader culture... Admittedly I ask that as one who, while having little patience for the political wranglings and legalism that have often accompanied the beard question, still finds tremendous value in the practice of Christian men accepting and wearing the beard, both from a Scriptural and a /cultural/historical standpoint.
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ABC 123

Re: To beard or not to beard

Post by ABC 123 »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:37 am
ABC 123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:53 am Ok, I am going to word this carefully. I mean no snark.

How can we say we believe that Salvation is not of works but through Jesus and then say (anything) is a "salvation" issue? Plug in anything you want, like the beard or obedience to (this or that church),
Is murdering your neighbour a “salvation issue”?

Is denying that Jesus is your saviour and the son of God a “salvation issue”?

Is committing adultery, and lying to cover it up, and then not supporting your illegitimate children, a “salvation issue”?

The Bible says no murderers, adulterers, or blasphemers will be in heaven. Is this “works salvation”?
To further my thought...

Jesus saves us from sin. Murdering. Lying. Adultery.

I am having a hard time thinking that He saved us from not wearing a beard or from wearing jeans when we should've been wearing dress pants.

Again, I am serious. I know you in particular, Josh, have had dealt me some harsh assessments. They have been unwarranted, but you are free to continue that if you like.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: To beard or not to beard

Post by Ken »

steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:42 am
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:19 am Those today who are not tend to be special forces types who wear full beards.
Bonus points if know why 8-)
To better blend in with the locals in places like Afghanistan? I don't actually know the answer but I think they were only allowed while on deployment and not while back in the US.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Heirbyadoption

Re: To beard or not to beard

Post by Heirbyadoption »

ABC 123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:39 am
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:37 am
ABC 123 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:53 am Ok, I am going to word this carefully. I mean no snark.

How can we say we believe that Salvation is not of works but through Jesus and then say (anything) is a "salvation" issue? Plug in anything you want, like the beard or obedience to (this or that church),
Is murdering your neighbour a “salvation issue”?

Is denying that Jesus is your saviour and the son of God a “salvation issue”?

Is committing adultery, and lying to cover it up, and then not supporting your illegitimate children, a “salvation issue”?

The Bible says no murderers, adulterers, or blasphemers will be in heaven. Is this “works salvation”?
The things you list are moral issues not performance issues.
I don't mean to sound dense by asking this, ABC123, but how are you defining what is a "moral issue" and what is not?

And as a second question, back to the OP, if you don't consider the beard to be a moral issue, doesn't that make this whole thread kinda moot...? :? Or do you perhaps see a "secondary" value in issue like the beard as "performance" issues rather than "moral" ones? (now THERE'S a can of worms. :D )
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steve-in-kville

Re: To beard or not to beard

Post by steve-in-kville »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:47 am
steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:42 am
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:19 am Those today who are not tend to be special forces types who wear full beards.
Bonus points if know why 8-)
To better blend in with the locals in places like Afghanistan? I don't actually know the answer but I think they were only allowed while on deployment and not while back in the US.
If I have facts straight, you're right. The US thing doesn't matter. The only time they have to be clean shaven is when they're required to wear their uppity-up (full dress) uniforms.
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