Covid-19 Vaccines and Christian Ethics

[RZehr]

If we are rejecting vaccines on ethical grounds, because of their stem cell testing, there is a lot more that you’ll need to reject on the same basis. Here is a partial list of ones that have been tested with the same HEK-293 cell line.
I’m curious if people are going to be told that they are contributing to abortion because they use Ivermectin, and that they should stop using Ivermectin.

Tylenol / Acetaminophen (1, 2)
Advil / Motrin / Ibuprofen (1, 2)
Aspirin / Acetylsalicylic Acid (ASA) (1, 2)
Aleve / Naproxen (1, 2)
Pseudoephedrine / Sudafed / / SudoGest, Suphedrine (1, 2)
Diphenhydramine / Benadryl (it is used so much with HEK293 that it has a page for using it and HEK293 together for further studies on the FDA site, 2)
Loratadine / Claritin (1, 2)
Dextromethorphan / Delsym / Robafen Cough / Robitussin (1, 2)
Guaifenesin / Mucinex (1)
Tums / Calcium Carbonate (1, 2)
Maalox / Aluminum Hydroxide and Magnesium Hydroxide (1)
Docusate / Colace / Ex-Lax Stool Softener (1, 2)
Senna Glycoside / Sennoside / Senna / Ex-Lax / Senokot (1)
Pepto-Bismol / Bismuth Subsalicylate (1)
Phenylephrine / Preparation H / Vazculep / Suphedrine PE (1, 2)
Mepyramine / Pyrilamine (1, 2)
Lidocaine / Lidoderm / Recticare (1, 2)
Levothyroxine / Synthroid / Tirosint / Levoxyl (1, 2)
Atorvastatin / Lipitor (1, 2)
Amlodipine / Norvasc (1, 2)
Metoprolol / Toprol XL / Lopressor (1, 2)
Omeprazole / Prilosec OTC / Zegerid OTC / OmePPi (1, 2)
Losartan / Cozaar (1, it is used so much in testing the FDA has a page on using it with HEK293)
Albuterol / Salbutamol / ProAir / Ventolin (1, 2)
Sacubitril / Valsartan / Entresto (2 studies mentioned in FDA application)
Tenapanor / Ibsrela (1 study mentioned in FDA application, 2)
Enbrel / Etanercept (1, 2)
Azithromycin / Zithromax (1, 2)
Hydroxychloroquine / Plaquenil (1, 2)
Remdesivir / Veklury (1, 2)
Dapagliflozin / Farxiga / Ipragliflozin / Suglat / Enavogliflozin / Jardiance (1)
Ivermectin / Stromectol (1, 2)
Canagliflozin / Invokana / Sulisent / Prominad (1 study mentioned in FDA application)
Metformin / Glucophage / Riomet / Glumetza (1, 2)
Cerivastatin / Baycol / Lipobay / Fluvastatin / Lescol / Pitavastatin / Livalo / Pravastatin / Pravachol / Rosuvastatin / Crestor (1)
Simvastatin / FloLipid / Zocor (1)
Oxbryta / Voxelotor (1 study mentioned in FDA application)
Lisinopril / Qbrelis / Zestril / Prinivil (1, 2)

[Soloist]

If we are rejecting vaccines on ethical grounds, because of their stem cell testing, there is a lot more that you’ll need to reject on the same basis. Here is a partial list of ones that have been tested with the same HEK-293 cell line.
I’m curious if people are going to be told that they are contributing to abortion because they use Ivermectin, and that they should stop using Ivermectin.

The majority of these medications predated the use of fetal cells for testing. I've gone down this route before and this is why I take a stance of 1980. I will point out that many if not all our medication has been tested on fetal cells but many of these medications existed with FDA approval prior to fetal cell testing. So the argument is flawed. The medications are not approved or disapproved through use of fetal cells.

Here is an email I sent someone about it in response to this posting

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/throughca ... -medicine/

While looking into it a little further I identified an issue with his article trying to discredit the opposition to fetal cell testing and its subtle to the point of you need to dig into it to counter it.
While I don't dispute that research using fetal cells was conducted on these medications, I see a problem with using this to discredit a position and build creditability with use of the vaccine. I'll assess the first 10 here just to point out what I see. We both know the HEK-293 cell line was developed in 1973.

Acetaminophen was first prepared in 1878 by H. N. Morse https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/mole ... ric%20drug.

Ibuprofen 1960 by Stewart Adams https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/90 ... 0discovery.

Aspirin 1897 by Felix Hoffman https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... n%2C%20a,1).

Naproxen 1967 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naproxen

Pseudoephedrine wasn't particularly easy to find that information on and I saw suggestions that it was pre 1970 but no actual data.

Diphenhydramine first developed by George Rieveschl and sold in 1946 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphenhydramine

Loratadine This one would require further digging to assess fetal cell testing for FDA approval Loratadine was patented in 1980 and came to market in 1988.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loratadin ... 0in%201988.

Dextromethorphan 1953 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextromethorphan
Guaifenesin 1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaifenesin

Tums 1930 by James Howe https://www.tums.ca/about/

After this a response was generated to the article based partly on my research https://cogforlife.org/2021/05/12/lets- ... al-tissue/

for example if Ford makes a pickup and you buy it, lets say its 2015 F-150. Now they used crash dummies to test the safety. Okay nothing wrong there. You find out a few years later they dug up a few 2015 F-150's and tested crashing them with real people in them. Clearly unethical but it doesn't make the car you own unethical.
In contrast, no one would buy a car that was tested for safety with real people before being sold... Or at least I would say its unethical.

[mennonitemom1]

If we are rejecting vaccines on ethical grounds, because of their stem cell testing, there is a lot more that you’ll need to reject on the same basis. Here is a partial list of ones that have been tested with the same HEK-293 cell line.
I’m curious if people are going to be told that they are contributing to abortion because they use Ivermectin, and that they should stop using Ivermectin.

Tylenol / Acetaminophen (1, 2)
Advil / Motrin / Ibuprofen (1, 2)
Aspirin / Acetylsalicylic Acid (ASA) (1, 2)
Aleve / Naproxen (1, 2)
Pseudoephedrine / Sudafed / / SudoGest, Suphedrine (1, 2)
Diphenhydramine / Benadryl (it is used so much with HEK293 that it has a page for using it and HEK293 together for further studies on the FDA site, 2)
Loratadine / Claritin (1, 2)
Dextromethorphan / Delsym / Robafen Cough / Robitussin (1, 2)
Guaifenesin / Mucinex (1)
Tums / Calcium Carbonate (1, 2)
Maalox / Aluminum Hydroxide and Magnesium Hydroxide (1)
Docusate / Colace / Ex-Lax Stool Softener (1, 2)
Senna Glycoside / Sennoside / Senna / Ex-Lax / Senokot (1)
Pepto-Bismol / Bismuth Subsalicylate (1)
Phenylephrine / Preparation H / Vazculep / Suphedrine PE (1, 2)
Mepyramine / Pyrilamine (1, 2)
Lidocaine / Lidoderm / Recticare (1, 2)

Levothyroxine / Synthroid / Tirosint / Levoxyl (1, 2)
Atorvastatin / Lipitor (1, 2)
Amlodipine / Norvasc (1, 2)
Metoprolol / Toprol XL / Lopressor (1, 2)
Omeprazole / Prilosec OTC / Zegerid OTC / OmePPi (1, 2)
Losartan / Cozaar (1, it is used so much in testing the FDA has a page on using it with HEK293)
Albuterol / Salbutamol / ProAir / Ventolin (1, 2)
Sacubitril / Valsartan / Entresto (2 studies mentioned in FDA application)
Tenapanor / Ibsrela (1 study mentioned in FDA application, 2)
Enbrel / Etanercept (1, 2)
Azithromycin / Zithromax (1, 2)
Hydroxychloroquine / Plaquenil (1, 2)
Remdesivir / Veklury (1, 2)
Dapagliflozin / Farxiga / Ipragliflozin / Suglat / Enavogliflozin / Jardiance (1)
Ivermectin / Stromectol (1, 2)
Canagliflozin / Invokana / Sulisent / Prominad (1 study mentioned in FDA application)
Metformin / Glucophage / Riomet / Glumetza (1, 2)
Cerivastatin / Baycol / Lipobay / Fluvastatin / Lescol / Pitavastatin / Livalo / Pravastatin / Pravachol / Rosuvastatin / Crestor (1)
Simvastatin / FloLipid / Zocor (1)
Oxbryta / Voxelotor (1 study mentioned in FDA application)
Lisinopril / Qbrelis / Zestril / Prinivil (1, 2)

wow, satan is having a field day

[RZehr]

If we are rejecting vaccines on ethical grounds, because of their stem cell testing, there is a lot more that you’ll need to reject on the same basis. Here is a partial list of ones that have been tested with the same HEK-293 cell line.
I’m curious if people are going to be told that they are contributing to abortion because they use Ivermectin, and that they should stop using Ivermectin.

The majority of these medications predated the use of fetal cells for testing. I've gone down this route before and this is why I take a stance of 1980. I will point out that many if not all our medication has been tested on fetal cells but many of these medications existed with FDA approval prior to fetal cell testing. So the argument is flawed. The medications are not approved or disapproved through use of fetal cells.

Here is an email I sent someone about it in response to this posting

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/throughca ... -medicine/

While looking into it a little further I identified an issue with his article trying to discredit the opposition to fetal cell testing and its subtle to the point of you need to dig into it to counter it.
While I don't dispute that research using fetal cells was conducted on these medications, I see a problem with using this to discredit a position and build creditability with use of the vaccine. I'll assess the first 10 here just to point out what I see. We both know the HEK-293 cell line was developed in 1973.

Acetaminophen was first prepared in 1878 by H. N. Morse https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/mole ... ric%20drug.

Ibuprofen 1960 by Stewart Adams https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/90 ... 0discovery.

Aspirin 1897 by Felix Hoffman https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... n%2C%20a,1).

Naproxen 1967 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naproxen

Pseudoephedrine wasn't particularly easy to find that information on and I saw suggestions that it was pre 1970 but no actual data.

Diphenhydramine first developed by George Rieveschl and sold in 1946 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphenhydramine

Loratadine This one would require further digging to assess fetal cell testing for FDA approval Loratadine was patented in 1980 and came to market in 1988.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loratadin ... 0in%201988.

Dextromethorphan 1953 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextromethorphan
Guaifenesin 1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaifenesin

Tums 1930 by James Howe https://www.tums.ca/about/

After this a response was generated to the article based partly on my research https://cogforlife.org/2021/05/12/lets- ... al-tissue/

for example if Ford makes a pickup and you buy it, lets say its 2015 F-150. Now they used crash dummies to test the safety. Okay nothing wrong there. You find out a few years later they dug up a few 2015 F-150's and tested crashing them with real people in them. Clearly unethical but it doesn't make the car you own unethical.
In contrast, no one would buy a car that was tested for safety with real people before being sold... Or at least I would say its unethical.

Thanks.

[Ken]

If we are rejecting vaccines on ethical grounds, because of their stem cell testing, there is a lot more that you’ll need to reject on the same basis. Here is a partial list of ones that have been tested with the same HEK-293 cell line.
I’m curious if people are going to be told that they are contributing to abortion because they use Ivermectin, and that they should stop using Ivermectin.

The majority of these medications predated the use of fetal cells for testing. I've gone down this route before and this is why I take a stance of 1980. I will point out that many if not all our medication has been tested on fetal cells but many of these medications existed with FDA approval prior to fetal cell testing. So the argument is flawed. The medications are not approved or disapproved through use of fetal cells.

Here is an email I sent someone about it in response to this posting

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/throughca ... -medicine/

While looking into it a little further I identified an issue with his article trying to discredit the opposition to fetal cell testing and its subtle to the point of you need to dig into it to counter it.
While I don't dispute that research using fetal cells was conducted on these medications, I see a problem with using this to discredit a position and build creditability with use of the vaccine. I'll assess the first 10 here just to point out what I see. We both know the HEK-293 cell line was developed in 1973.

Acetaminophen was first prepared in 1878 by H. N. Morse https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/mole ... ric%20drug.

Ibuprofen 1960 by Stewart Adams https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/90 ... 0discovery.

Aspirin 1897 by Felix Hoffman https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... n%2C%20a,1).

Naproxen 1967 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naproxen

Pseudoephedrine wasn't particularly easy to find that information on and I saw suggestions that it was pre 1970 but no actual data.

Diphenhydramine first developed by George Rieveschl and sold in 1946 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphenhydramine

Loratadine This one would require further digging to assess fetal cell testing for FDA approval Loratadine was patented in 1980 and came to market in 1988.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loratadin ... 0in%201988.

Dextromethorphan 1953 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextromethorphan
Guaifenesin 1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaifenesin

Tums 1930 by James Howe https://www.tums.ca/about/

After this a response was generated to the article based partly on my research https://cogforlife.org/2021/05/12/lets- ... al-tissue/

for example if Ford makes a pickup and you buy it, lets say its 2015 F-150. Now they used crash dummies to test the safety. Okay nothing wrong there. You find out a few years later they dug up a few 2015 F-150's and tested crashing them with real people in them. Clearly unethical but it doesn't make the car you own unethical.
In contrast, no one would buy a car that was tested for safety with real people before being sold... Or at least I would say its unethical.

I suppose your argument would make more sense if you bought 50-year old bottles of Sudafed or Acetaminophen that would probably be 45-years expired. But the modern versions have clearly been tested and re-tested using modern techniques which includes stem cells. What does FDA approval have to do with anything? The products as they exist and are sold today have undergone continued testing that includes stem cells.

[Josh]

If we are rejecting vaccines on ethical grounds, because of their stem cell testing, there is a lot more that you’ll need to reject on the same basis. Here is a partial list of ones that have been tested with the same HEK-293 cell line.
I’m curious if people are going to be told that they are contributing to abortion because they use Ivermectin, and that they should stop using Ivermectin.

The majority of these medications predated the use of fetal cells for testing. I've gone down this route before and this is why I take a stance of 1980. I will point out that many if not all our medication has been tested on fetal cells but many of these medications existed with FDA approval prior to fetal cell testing. So the argument is flawed. The medications are not approved or disapproved through use of fetal cells.

Here is an email I sent someone about it in response to this posting

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/throughca ... -medicine/

While looking into it a little further I identified an issue with his article trying to discredit the opposition to fetal cell testing and its subtle to the point of you need to dig into it to counter it.
While I don't dispute that research using fetal cells was conducted on these medications, I see a problem with using this to discredit a position and build creditability with use of the vaccine. I'll assess the first 10 here just to point out what I see. We both know the HEK-293 cell line was developed in 1973.

Acetaminophen was first prepared in 1878 by H. N. Morse https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/mole ... ric%20drug.

Ibuprofen 1960 by Stewart Adams https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/90 ... 0discovery.

Aspirin 1897 by Felix Hoffman https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... n%2C%20a,1).

Naproxen 1967 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naproxen

Pseudoephedrine wasn't particularly easy to find that information on and I saw suggestions that it was pre 1970 but no actual data.

Diphenhydramine first developed by George Rieveschl and sold in 1946 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphenhydramine

Loratadine This one would require further digging to assess fetal cell testing for FDA approval Loratadine was patented in 1980 and came to market in 1988.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loratadin ... 0in%201988.

Dextromethorphan 1953 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextromethorphan
Guaifenesin 1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaifenesin

Tums 1930 by James Howe https://www.tums.ca/about/

After this a response was generated to the article based partly on my research https://cogforlife.org/2021/05/12/lets- ... al-tissue/

for example if Ford makes a pickup and you buy it, lets say its 2015 F-150. Now they used crash dummies to test the safety. Okay nothing wrong there. You find out a few years later they dug up a few 2015 F-150's and tested crashing them with real people in them. Clearly unethical but it doesn't make the car you own unethical.
In contrast, no one would buy a car that was tested for safety with real people before being sold... Or at least I would say its unethical.

I suppose your argument would make more sense if you bought 50-year old bottles of Sudafed or Acetaminophen that would probably be 45-years expired. But the modern versions have clearly been tested and re-tested using modern techniques which includes stem cells. What does FDA approval have to do with anything? The products as they exist and are sold today have undergone continued testing that includes stem cells.

Definitely a problem, and long term, eventually basically any kind of “modern” medical care will be off the table involving pharmaceuticals, biologics, or implants or other drug coated medical devices.

This is why different groups felt it important to suppress research using fetal stem cells. Now that cat’s out of the bag. More and more widespread use will eventually lead to a need for fresh tissue, which I see as a very big problem.

I draw my line roughly where Soloist does, I won’t use new therapies that didn’t exist before they were tested or derived from fetal stem cells. An old chemical like acetaminophen existed long before anyone knew what stem cells were.

If modern manufacturing relies more and more on integrating stem cells into production, we can hope a market emerges for people who want ethical medicine, and otherwise abstain until it arrives.

[Soloist]

This is why different groups felt it important to suppress research using fetal stem cells. Now that cat’s out of the bag. More and more widespread use will eventually lead to a need for fresh tissue, which I see as a very big problem.

I draw my line roughly where Soloist does, I won’t use new therapies that didn’t exist before they were tested or derived from fetal stem cells. An old chemical like acetaminophen existed long before anyone knew what stem cells were.

If modern manufacturing relies more and more on integrating stem cells into production, we can hope a market emerges for people who want ethical medicine, and otherwise abstain until it arrives.

We already are using fresh abortions for medication research...

[Bootstrap]

We already are using fresh abortions for medication research...

Now this is something new to me. You may have said this in other posts, but I haven't picked up on it. Where are fresh abortions being used for medical research?

[Soloist]

We already are using fresh abortions for medication research...

Now this is something new to me. You may have said this in other posts, but I haven't picked up on it. Where are fresh abortions being used for medical research?

Look into humanized mice... These are going on to produce monoclonal antibody therapies and advanced treatment for a number of different diseases. The grafting process requires young mice and a fresh abortion. Fedex ships it same day being careful not to X-ray it and they graft same day if possible that it was collected. The mice have their immune system stripped out. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7265413/

These humanized mice engrafted with human cells and tissues serve as a preclinical bridge for several research areas. Engraftment of immunodeficient mice with human peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs), hematopoietic stem cells (HSCs) or human fetal tissues (thymus and liver) began in 1988 following the discovery of the Prkdcscid (severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID)) mutation on the CB17 mouse strain background1, with a focus on the development of a model for studies of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). Humanized mice also have been used for testing the safety of drugs that target immunoreceptors exhibiting species-specific functionality. An example of this is therapy with antibody to the co-stimulatory receptor CD28, for which preclinical studies of non-human primates did not predict the serious adverse events observed in the first human clinical trial2.

[Bootstrap]

We already are using fresh abortions for medication research...

Now this is something new to me. You may have said this in other posts, but I haven't picked up on it. Where are fresh abortions being used for medical research?

Look into humanized mice... These are going on to produce monoclonal antibody therapies and advanced treatment for a number of different diseases. The grafting process requires young mice and a fresh abortion. Fedex ships it same day being careful not to X-ray it and they graft same day if possible that it was collected. The mice have their immune system stripped out. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7265413/

These humanized mice engrafted with human cells and tissues serve as a preclinical bridge for several research areas. Engraftment of immunodeficient mice with human peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs), hematopoietic stem cells (HSCs) or human fetal tissues (thymus and liver) began in 1988 following the discovery of the Prkdcscid (severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID)) mutation on the CB17 mouse strain background1, with a focus on the development of a model for studies of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). Humanized mice also have been used for testing the safety of drugs that target immunoreceptors exhibiting species-specific functionality. An example of this is therapy with antibody to the co-stimulatory receptor CD28, for which preclinical studies of non-human primates did not predict the serious adverse events observed in the first human clinical trial2.

This got my attention.

Is there any way to find out what drugs have been developed using humanized mice and fresh abortions? It looks like humanized mice can also use non-fetal tissue?

Humanized mice have become an important tool for many research applications, including human immune function, infectious diseases, autoimmune diseases, cancer, and organ or tissue transplantation. In addition to the need for direct comparisons of humanized mice generated with fetal tissue and those generated with non-fetal tissue, improving current HIS mouse models to better recapitulate the human immune system has the potential to lead to new biological insights and permit the assessment of new biological therapies (Fig. 2).