Covid-19 Vaccines and Christian Ethics

[mennonitemom1]

Notice how in the modern era... there is no more being married to wives or given in marriage.

In the modern era, it is replaced with cohabitation, fornication, sex before marriage, and gay marriage.



I think those above are all considered "marriages".......... doesn't mean it's the kind Yah likes..... but it is what it is... Paul said not to be with a harlot or one would then be joined....

[Josh]

Notice how in the modern era... there is no more being married to wives or given in marriage.

In the modern era, it is replaced with cohabitation, fornication, sex before marriage, and gay marriage.



I think those above are all considered "marriages".......... doesn't mean it's the kind Yah likes..... but it is what it is... Paul said not to be with a harlot or one would then be joined....

Like Sodom and Gomorrah, people are not living the way God created for them to live, but rather are living in squalor and filth. Modern society doesn’t have a concept of “marriage” that means much of anything at all. Very few people intend to commit to marriage for life.

[RZehr]

What if the government mandated that organ donation was compulsory. Everyone that died -naturally and murdered-would have that body checked for organ needs. While it might be an invasion of personal agency of sorts, it would undoubtedly save a lot of live. I think we would all know some sick person who would benefit from a new organ. After one loved ones life being saved, I don’t think many of us would see an ethical compromise in this.

I see fetal cell lines in much the same way. As such, I don’t see myself culpable in either the adult murder or the abortion murder.
I don’t see it as a cause for abortion. I don’t see abortion stopping.

Fire away. I’m using you as a sounding board.

[Ken]

What if the government mandated that organ donation was compulsory. Everyone that died -naturally and murdered-would have that body checked for organ needs. While it might be an invasion of personal agency of sorts, it would undoubtedly save a lot of live. I think we would all know some sick person who would benefit from a new organ. After one loved ones life being saved, I don’t think many of us would see an ethical compromise in this.

I see fetal cell lines in much the same way. As such, I don’t see myself culpable in either the adult murder or the abortion murder.
I don’t see it as a cause for abortion. I don’t see abortion stopping.

Fire away. I’m using you as a sounding board.

I expect there might be certain religious sects who might object to mandatory organ donation. But you could accomplish 99% of what you suggest simply by changing the law so that organ donation is the DEFAULT option and people need to go through some sort of religious waiver or opt-out process if they want to refuse. Similar to the employment-based vaccine mandates that are growing increasingly common.

I personally think the whole debate over 40 or 50 year old stem cells is kind of a distraction and if you want to reduce abortions there are much more productive ways to go about it.

[RZehr]

I’m suggesting the organ donation be a default requirement with religious and philosophical exemptions.
And I'm saying the Mennonites have not objected to organ donations historically, as recipients.

[Soloist]

I personally think the whole debate over 40 or 50 year old stem cells is kind of a distraction and if you want to reduce abortions there are much more productive ways to go about it.

Okay, what are these more productive ways that we can reduce abortion that fits with an non-political stance?

Also... You do realize its not about reducing abortion... we can't stop it in the same fashion we can't stop homosexuality. What we can do however, is not partake in the evil of the land as we were called to.

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

[Ken]

Okay, what are these more productive ways that we can reduce abortion that fits with an non-political stance?

1. By reducing unwanted pregnancies through improved access to family planning and education. Which is already happening under the ACA and, for example, teen pregnancies have dramatically fallen in the past 30 years since peaking around 1990. But we could still do a lot more.

2. By better supporting women who believe they have no choice but to have an abortion because they cannot afford a child. Through programs such as universal free pre-school and day-care, education, housing, etc. Even raising the minimum wage. If you don't want a poor 19 year old single mother to have an abortion, make it unnecessary for her to have one.

Any efforts in that direction will prevent far more abortions than any policy related to stem cell research or the use of 40-year old stem cell lines.

Those might not meet your criteria of a "non-political stance". But honestly, pretty much everything to do with abortion is political that goes beyond the personal choice of a woman to choose or choose not to have an abortion.

[Bootstrap]

What if the government mandated that organ donation was compulsory. Everyone that died -naturally and murdered-would have that body checked for organ needs. While it might be an invasion of personal agency of sorts, it would undoubtedly save a lot of live. I think we would all know some sick person who would benefit from a new organ. After one loved ones life being saved, I don’t think many of us would see an ethical compromise in this.

I see fetal cell lines in much the same way. As such, I don’t see myself culpable in either the adult murder or the abortion murder.
I don’t see it as a cause for abortion. I don’t see abortion stopping.

Fire away. I’m using you as a sounding board.

I like this approach to exploring ethics. Here are a few ways I think this is similar to and different from the Covid-19 case.

1. In your example, every person who dies - naturally or by murder - has their organs made available for transplants. In the Covid-19 case, there are 860,000 abortions a year, we are talking about the use of cells from two babies who were killed over 20 years ago.
2. Moral culpability for the murder is an important factor in both cases. I don't see the recipient as morally culpable in either case. I don't think that vaccines are an economic incentive for abortion. I understand - and appreciate - Soloist's position that he does not want to be polluted by these things or benefit from them in any way, but that is not my position. (I don't want to debate who is right, I want to describe the difference).
3. Saving lives is an important factor in both cases. About 36,000 Americans get an organ transplant every year, one organ donor can save up to 8 lives, according to ads I see. There have been 639,081 Covid-19 deaths since last year, vaccines are extremely effective against hospitalization and death. Cells from these two babies who died over 20 years ago can save many hundreds of thousands of lives.
4. If I don't get a liver transplant and die, that does not impose any danger to people around me. If I get Covid-19, I may be a danger to other people. I can no longer do anything to save those two babies killed over 20 years ago, but I can do something to protect lives today.

[Josh]

What if the government mandated that organ donation was compulsory. Everyone that died -naturally and murdered-would have that body checked for organ needs. While it might be an invasion of personal agency of sorts, it would undoubtedly save a lot of live. I think we would all know some sick person who would benefit from a new organ. After one loved ones life being saved, I don’t think many of us would see an ethical compromise in this.

I see fetal cell lines in much the same way. As such, I don’t see myself culpable in either the adult murder or the abortion murder.
I don’t see it as a cause for abortion. I don’t see abortion stopping.

Fire away. I’m using you as a sounding board.

Organ donation is pretty different from harvesting fetal issue.

However, China does exactly what you describe - including keeping death-row prisoners alive in order for their organs to be harvested. The problem is, if the need for organs is great, the government ends up sending lots of people to death row. This is exactly the problem with using aborted baby tissue.

In the long run, therapies and treatments that rely on aborted baby tissue means creating a market and a need for fresh aborted babies. That's very wrong.

[Josh]

1. In your example, every person who dies - naturally or by murder - has their organs made available for transplants. In the Covid-19 case, there are 860,000 abortions a year, we are talking about the use of cells from two babies who were killed over 20 years ago.
2. If I don't get a liver transplant and die, that does not impose any danger to people around me. If I get Covid-19, I may be a danger to other people. I can no longer do anything to save those two babies killed over 20 years ago, but I can do something to protect lives today.

Bootstrap,

Would you have a different position if fetal tissue from more recently aborted babies started being used? That's my concern. At some point a line has to be drawn.

20 year old stem cell lines can't be used forever (unless you find a way around the Hayflick limit); only cancer cells can be used indefinitely, like how HELA cells are used. So eventually, a new baby will have to be aborted, and fresh tissue used, if this continues.

I very much think room needs to be created for a religious carve-out for those of us who don't want to be involved. I'm not saying to stop your research, stop creating vaccines from fetal tissue, etc., - I'm just asking for those of us who don't want to do that, to opt out. Hopefully alternative therapies could be made. But if therapies can't be made, we simply have to decline the treatments. If I get bit by a rabid dog, I'll have to give up my life; there isn't a non-fetal-tissue vaccine available in America. But I'd rather go face a righteous judge and explain I gave up my life rather than try to "save my life" using aborted baby tissue.