The withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan

[Josh]

I was looking at this from a US State and military perspective. I wasn't commenting on whether I think they should be relocated and whether it should be to the US or some neighboring country.

And as usual, the hyperbole doesn't really contribute well to conversation IMO.

Most of these individuals being evacuated are people and their families who cooperated and worked with the US occupation. I think there’s a sense that the US owes them. The community of Vietnamese “boat people” who evacuated after the fall of Saigon has done generally well in the US since then and I don’t think there is a reason to preassume that these Afghan refugees are not going to be successful here.

As an American who has always been against these wars, I don’t see how we owe them anything.

They have their own country and their own government, and America gave them $2T trillion and equipped and trained a military for them.

The Taliban coming into power is a political change. There is no reason the U.S. “owes” them anything. Do you think America is an intrinsically
“better” country than Afghanistan?

[Ken]

I was looking at this from a US State and military perspective. I wasn't commenting on whether I think they should be relocated and whether it should be to the US or some neighboring country.

And as usual, the hyperbole doesn't really contribute well to conversation IMO.

Most of these individuals being evacuated are people and their families who cooperated and worked with the US occupation. I think there’s a sense that the US owes them. The community of Vietnamese “boat people” who evacuated after the fall of Saigon has done generally well in the US since then and I don’t think there is a reason to preassume that these Afghan refugees are not going to be successful here.

As an American who has always been against these wars, I don’t see how we owe them anything.

They have their own country and their own government, and America gave them $2T trillion and equipped and trained a military for them.

The Taliban coming into power is a political change. There is no reason the U.S. “owes” them anything. Do you think America is an intrinsically
“better” country than Afghanistan?

There is a difference between:

1. People who might have relied on the economic and cultural space that the US presence afforded in order to open up schools, businesses, newspapers, web sites, churches, etc. And many of them might find themselves in some form of jeopardy with the regime change. I expect mostly they will just have to give up whatever modern thing they were doing and mostly aren't on things like death lists. But there appears to be some of that too. We don't really have any legal obligation to these people but perhaps a moral or humanitarian obligation. If not to relocate them, then to exert as much pressure as we can directly, and indirectly, to make sure they are safe where they are (sanctions, international pressure, etc.)

2. People who specifically worked for the US military based on the pro-quid-pro promise that they would be taken care of and relocated if things went south. The US government actually makes these exact promises either informally or formally. And we do have both a legal and moral obligation to help such people. A contract is a contract. And a contract entered into by Afghan translators with the US government is no less valid than any contract entered into by the US government anywhere else.

I expect within Afghanistan there are millions of people who fall into category #1 but only a finite number in the tens of thousands who fall into category #2. But when you add all their families and such the number grows much larger.

[Ernie]

When discussing something like this, the term "we" is often used to refer to the US government and its national supporters (Americans).
I notice that this term is used by folks who did not grow up Anabaptist and that is understandable. It takes awhile for the language to catch up with the path one is on.
Whenever this pronoun is used by folks who grew up Anabaptist, I assume that they, their children, or their grandchildren will soon be helping the US government accomplish its agendas.

I see a need for distinguishing what the US government owes people, what humans owe other human beings, and what we as Christians owe people.

The US government needs to be responsible and do what is responsible for the situations they have created.

Humans who have been blessed by God are responsible to bless other human beings. We are our brother's keeper.

Christians are called to sacrifice in behalf of others, and show what the whole world would look like if everyone obeyed the King. The King says that the way we will do this is if we love others as the King loved us. The king says we should not tell people to be warmed and filled and not give them anything to eat. The King tells us that people will know we are his disciples if we keep his commandments. Part of this is being kind to strangers and poor people and not just hanging out with our kin and our rich neighbors.

[Josh]

When discussing something like this, the term "we" is often used to refer to the US government and its national supporters (Americans).
I notice that this term is used by folks who did not grow up Anabaptist and that is understandable. It takes awhile for the language to catch up with the path one is on.
Whenever this pronoun is used by folks who grew up Anabaptist, I assume that they, their children, or their grandchildren will soon be helping the US government accomplish its agendas.

I see a need for distinguishing what the US government owes people, what humans owe other human beings, and what we as Christians owe people.

The US government needs to be responsible and do what is responsible for the situations they have created.

Humans who have been blessed by God are responsible to bless other human beings. We are our brother's keeper.

Christians are called to sacrifice in behalf of others, and show what the whole world would look like if everyone obeyed the King. The King says that the way we will do this is if we love others as the King loved us. The king says we should not tell people to be warmed and filled and not give them anything to eat. The King tells us that people will know we are his disciples if we keep his commandments. Part of this is being kind to strangers and poor people and not just hanging out with our kin and our rich neighbors.

Christians are not called to sacrifice in order to provide benefits to contractors who collaborated with the U.S. military.

[Ernie]

Do you really think that is what I was trying to say?

[Josh]

Do you really think that is what I was trying to say, or are words being put in my mouth?

I don’t think it’s what you meant to say.

Yet, the calls for allowing “translators” and “those who helped the Americans” to migrate to America is literally saying “people who help the American war machine should get special privileges”. That doesn’t seem like a Christian principle at all.

Nobody in Afghanistan is even in danger - except from the U.S. military. The U.S. conducted air strikes that killed children today. It sure is hard to see how America is the “good guys” here.

[Ernie]

Do you really think that is what I was trying to say, or are words being put in my mouth?

I don’t think it’s what you meant to say.

Yet, the calls for allowing “translators” and “those who helped the Americans” to migrate to America is literally saying “people who help the American war machine should get special privileges”. That doesn’t seem like a Christian principle at all.

Nobody in Afghanistan is even in danger - except from the U.S. military. The U.S. conducted air strikes that killed children today. It sure is hard to see how America is the “good guys” here.

Calls for allowing translators, etc. is a responsibility of the military. The responsibility of Christians is to love anyone who shows up on our doorstep, whether Taliban, ISIS, or US ally.

After reading the last sentence, I don't know how you read the news. 170 Afghans just died from an ISIS bomb.

[Josh]

Update: the U.S. missile killed a translator and a (former) ANA officer.

The Taliban is not friends with IS-K either and considers them their enemy. This is no different than if the ANA government were in power, which wasn’t able to accomplish much of anything without the Americans propping them up.

However, the American regime isn’t any more or less legitimate or violent than ISIS. Both use bombs and killing and violence to achieve their ends.

[Wayne in Maine]

Do you really think that is what I was trying to say, or are words being put in my mouth?

I don’t think it’s what you meant to say.

Yet, the calls for allowing “translators” and “those who helped the Americans” to migrate to America is literally saying “people who help the American war machine should get special privileges”. That doesn’t seem like a Christian principle at all.

Nobody in Afghanistan is even in danger - except from the U.S. military. The U.S. conducted air strikes that killed children today. It sure is hard to see how America is the “good guys” here.

Okay. So these wicked corporate servants of America’s war machine are not “our” friends, they are “our” (us being Mennonite followers of Jesus) enemies, so let them get their just deserts. Do I get you right?

Your contrariness is going too far.

[Josh]

Do you really think that is what I was trying to say, or are words being put in my mouth?

I don’t think it’s what you meant to say.

Yet, the calls for allowing “translators” and “those who helped the Americans” to migrate to America is literally saying “people who help the American war machine should get special privileges”. That doesn’t seem like a Christian principle at all.

Nobody in Afghanistan is even in danger - except from the U.S. military. The U.S. conducted air strikes that killed children today. It sure is hard to see how America is the “good guys” here.

Okay. So these wicked corporate servants of America’s war machine are not “our” friends, they are “our” (us being Mennonite followers of Jesus) enemies, so let them get their just deserts. Do I get you right?

Your contrariness is going too far.

Personally I don’t find them my enemies or friends at all.

But I don’t think Christians somehow have a duty to lobby to help American military contractors have a better life in exchange for serving the American military. Which seems to be the argument I keep hearing.