The withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan

[Josh]

Again, I think the big mistakes were not planning ahead for a massive airlift, and not implementing an orderly SIV and evacuation process in the months previous to the withdrawal. With all the bungling of recent presidents related to crises and conflicts, I'm not sure any of them could have done well in a situation like this.

I'm not saying there is nobody who could handle crises like this well. But in the last number of decades, US citizens have been electing presidents who are known for their ability to talk big, inspire or charm the masses and/or their ability to scorn political opponents. It seems to me that it has been a long time since the US elected a President based on his administrative ability.

Why is there a need for a massive airlift?

Kabul and other cities have had commercial flights for years. Anyone who wanted to leave and go to UAE, Pakistan, China, etc has been free to go.

Obviously a lot of people wanted to stay.

[Ernie]

Why is there a need for a massive airlift?

Kabul and other cities have had commercial flights for years. Anyone who wanted to leave and go to UAE, Pakistan, China, etc has been free to go.

Obviously a lot of people wanted to stay.

I'm sure there were plenty of people who wanted to stay until the realized that the Taliban was taking over the country.

However, the majority likely wished to get out of the country before July. The current administration inherited a backlog of 17,000 SIV applicants in January of this year due in part to previous administration policies. There were no VISA interviews at the US embassy in Kabul from March 2020-December 2020.
The current administration ramped up SIV application processing this year, but not to the level and speed that was needed to accommodate all the folks who wished to leave the country. Hence the massive airlift at the last hour. The airlift could have started last year.

[Ernie]

Many American's don't want the government telling them what to do, but then blame the government if things don't work out in their favor.
The folks who don't pay much attention to federal travel advisory, are often the ones who don't pay attention to a lot of other things the government advises. I'm not saying that people should follow federal advice, but they should not expect the federal government to help them out when they go against that advise. They certainly shouldn't criticize the government.

I thought we were never supposed to blame and shame the victim?

Who promotes that concept and in which situations?

This is the worldview I was operating from in my earlier statement.
"The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, speak to your countrymen and say to them: `When I bring the sword against a land, and the people of the land choose one of their men and make him their watchman, and he sees the sword coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people, then if anyone hears the trumpet but does not take warning and the sword comes and takes his life, his blood will be on his own head. Since he heard the sound of the trumpet but did not take warning, his blood will be on his own head. If he had taken warning, he would have saved himself. But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.'

[Ken]

A lot of parallels have been drawn in the media to the fall of Saigon.

But imagine for a moment what would have happened if we had "won" Vietnam. We would now be in our 65th straight year of military occupation of that country with countless billions more spent propping up South Vietnam and countless more American lives lost due to terrorism (Vietcong) and military skirmishes on the border with the North Vietnamese. And we would almost certainly have been sucked into the subsequent civil war in Cambodia that brought the Khmer Rouge. Which we more or less started by Kissinger's aerial bombing of Cambodia in the early 1970s which destabilized the country.

Instead Vietnam is now a thriving nation and quasi-US ally as they share our interest in being a bulwark against Chinese expansion. US warships now visit Vietnam on a regular basis and there is substantial military cooperation between the two countries, thriving commercial trade, and thousands of Americans visit and have homes in Vietnam. And instead of US troops having to take down the Khmer Rouge, the Vietnamese did it for us in the late 1970s with the loss of life of about 30,000 Vietnamese soldiers during that war. All this without one American soldier being put at risk and little or no investment on the part of US taxpayers.

This is what a "fallen" Saigon looks like today. US companies and investments are pouring into the place

[nett]

A lot of parallels have been drawn in the media to the fall of Saigon.

But imagine for a moment what would have happened if we had "won" Vietnam. We would now be in our 65th straight year of military occupation of that country with countless billions more spent propping up South Vietnam and countless more American lives lost due to terrorism (Vietcong) and military skirmishes on the border with the North Vietnamese. And we would almost certainly have been sucked into the subsequent civil war in Cambodia that brought the Khmer Rouge. Which we more or less started by Kissinger's aerial bombing of Cambodia in the early 1970s which destabilized the country.

Instead Vietnam is now a thriving nation and quasi-US ally as they share our interest in being a bulwark against Chinese expansion. US warships now visit Vietnam on a regular basis and there is substantial military cooperation between the two countries, thriving commercial trade, and thousands of Americans visit and have homes in Vietnam. And instead of US troops having to take down the Khmer Rouge, the Vietnamese did it for us in the late 1970s with the loss of life of about 30,000 Vietnamese soldiers during that war. All this without one American soldier being put at risk and little or no investment on the part of US taxpayers.

This is what a "fallen" Saigon looks like today. US companies and investments are pouring into the place

So now you're defining the Vietnam war as a success. Hard to have meaningful discussion when established history is re-written.

[Szdfan]

I'm sure there were plenty of people who wanted to stay until the realized that the Taliban was taking over the country.

However, the majority likely wished to get out of the country before July. The current administration inherited a backlog of 17,000 SIV applicants in January of this year due in part to previous administration policies. There were no VISA interviews at the US embassy in Kabul from March 2020-December 2020.
The current administration ramped up SIV application processing this year, but not to the level and speed that was needed to accommodate all the folks who wished to leave the country. Hence the massive airlift at the last hour. The airlift could have started last year.

The current refugee crisis in Afghanistan is worse because the previous administration essentially killed the US refugee program and now there is a refugee crisis that involves supporters and allies and the US is playing catch-up in the middle of the crisis.

[Ken]

So now you're defining the Vietnam war as a success. Hard to have meaningful discussion when established history is re-written.

No, I'm saying maybe it was for the best that we left instead of dragging out an endless war for another 20 years.

Sometimes MORE WAR really isn't the answer.

[Josh]

Why is there a need for a massive airlift?

Kabul and other cities have had commercial flights for years. Anyone who wanted to leave and go to UAE, Pakistan, China, etc has been free to go.

Obviously a lot of people wanted to stay.

I'm sure there were plenty of people who wanted to stay until the realized that the Taliban was taking over the country.

However, the majority likely wished to get out of the country before July. The current administration inherited a backlog of 17,000 SIV applicants in January of this year due in part to previous administration policies. There were no VISA interviews at the US embassy in Kabul from March 2020-December 2020.
The current administration ramped up SIV application processing this year, but not to the level and speed that was needed to accommodate all the folks who wished to leave the country. Hence the massive airlift at the last hour. The airlift could have started last year.

Why does a large portion of Afghanistan need to be relocated to the U.S.? It would make more sense to go to a nearby sympathetic country that is also Islamic and shares similar languages / cultures.

I don’t think it makes sense to try to relocate half the planet to America. We are deeply on debt and having trouble taking care of people already here. The money and programs would be better spent serving our millions of poor people rather than importing even more poor people.

[Ernie]

Why does a large portion of Afghanistan need to be relocated to the U.S.? It would make more sense to go to a nearby sympathetic country that is also Islamic and shares similar languages / cultures.

I don’t think it makes sense to try to relocate half the planet to America. We are deeply on debt and having trouble taking care of people already here. The money and programs would be better spent serving our millions of poor people rather than importing even more poor people.

I was looking at this from a US State and military perspective. I wasn't commenting on whether I think they should be relocated and whether it should be to the US or some neighboring country.

And as usual, the hyperbole doesn't really contribute well to conversation IMO.

[Szdfan]

I was looking at this from a US State and military perspective. I wasn't commenting on whether I think they should be relocated and whether it should be to the US or some neighboring country.

And as usual, the hyperbole doesn't really contribute well to conversation IMO.

Most of these individuals being evacuated are people and their families who cooperated and worked with the US occupation. I think there’s a sense that the US owes them. The community of Vietnamese “boat people” who evacuated after the fall of Saigon has done generally well in the US since then and I don’t think there is a reason to preassume that these Afghan refugees are not going to be successful here.