The withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan

[HondurasKeiser]

Yep.
Many American's don't want the government telling them what to do, but then blame the government if things don't work out in their favor.

The folks who don't pay much attention to federal travel advisory, are often the ones who don't pay attention to a lot of other things the government advises. I'm not saying that people should follow federal advice, but they should not expect the federal government to help them out when they go against that advise. They certainly shouldn't criticize the government.

I thought we were never supposed to blame and shame the victim?

[Ken]

I don't think it is nonexistent money.

When the government runs deficits and the national debt is $28 trillion, it is nonexistant money.

Yet you receive it in the form of salaries, pensions, social security, etc. (whatever your source of income is), you save it in bank accounts and investment portfolios, and you spend it on a daily basis every time you swipe a credit card, write a check, order online, or use cash for anything.

Is all that activity on your part just imaginary? If you own a store can I just walk in and take what I want because money is imaginary anyway?

[Ken]

So sad for the people "stranded" in Afghanistan and the photos of mothers with their children is heartbreaking



"At least 13 people including children have been killed in two separate explosions near Kabul airport, with three US soldiers wounded, just hours after warnings of an 'imminent' and 'lethal' ISIS terror attack. President Joe Biden has been briefed on the blast, one of which ripped through a crowd of Afghans gathered at the Abbey gate of the Hamid Karzai airport, and another which hit Barons Hotel, followed by gunfire amid the mass panic. Images from the scene show scores of bloodied people being carried away from the bombsite with reports of multiple casualties. A witness said the suicide bomber had detonated a device in a sewage canal-way packed with people and that there were 'definitely' civilian casualties. He said the passage was overlooked by US soldiers and he had been told that there were casualties among the American troops, adding: 'This could be the end of the airlift."'


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html

The potential for terrorist attacks by ISIS is exactly why the US government issued a travel warning back in April urging all Americans not to travel to Afghanistan and urged all Americans in Afghanistan to arrange transport out of the country by commercial air travel at the earliest possible opportunity. And why they evacuated all non-essential US personnel. I posted a copy upstream in this thread yesterday.

Some random unidentified witness said "this could be the end of the airlift" and the reporter repeated it? That is really shoddy reporting if the reporter didn't check that unsubstantiated rumor with any actual US authorities. I have seen nothing in the news about the US ending the airlift. In fact, checking reporting in the NYT this morning they say that evacuation flights are continuing, unaffected by the blast outside the airport.

[Grace]

The potential for terrorist attacks by ISIS is exactly why the US government issued a travel warning back in April urging all Americans not to travel to Afghanistan and urged all Americans in Afghanistan to arrange transport out of the country by commercial air travel at the earliest possible opportunity. And why they evacuated all non-essential US personnel. I posted a copy upstream in this thread yesterday.

Some random unidentified witness said "this could be the end of the airlift" and the reporter repeated it? That is really shoddy reporting if the reporter didn't check that unsubstantiated rumor with any actual US authorities. I have seen nothing in the news about the US ending the airlift. In fact, checking reporting in the NYT this morning they say that evacuation flights are continuing, unaffected by the blast outside the airport.

I suppose those inside the security of the airport are still being evacuated. However there are several thousand Americans outside the airport. If that were not so, then the U.S. Embassy in Afghanistan would not have warned Americans to stay away from the Kabul airport and told anyone outside the perimeter to leave immediately due to terrorist threats.

We now know that four United States Marines were Killed in the Terror Attack.

And where is Biden ? Even Jen Psaki isn't having a press briefing today. The Pentagon will have a briefing, but what Americans need to see, is the President addressing the situation.

[Ken]

The potential for terrorist attacks by ISIS is exactly why the US government issued a travel warning back in April urging all Americans not to travel to Afghanistan and urged all Americans in Afghanistan to arrange transport out of the country by commercial air travel at the earliest possible opportunity. And why they evacuated all non-essential US personnel. I posted a copy upstream in this thread yesterday.

Some random unidentified witness said "this could be the end of the airlift" and the reporter repeated it? That is really shoddy reporting if the reporter didn't check that unsubstantiated rumor with any actual US authorities. I have seen nothing in the news about the US ending the airlift. In fact, checking reporting in the NYT this morning they say that evacuation flights are continuing, unaffected by the blast outside the airport.

I suppose those inside the security of the airport are still being evacuated. However there are several thousand Americans outside the airport. If that were not so, then the U.S. Embassy in Afghanistan would not have warned Americans to stay away from the Kabul airport and told anyone outside the perimeter to leave immediately due to terrorist threats.

We now know that four United States Marines were Killed in the Terror Attack.

And where is Biden ? Even Jen Psaki isn't having a press briefing today. The Pentagon will have a briefing, but what Americans need to see, is the President addressing the situation.

It appears this was an attack by a group called Islamic State Khorasan, or ISIS-K, which is a Pakistan branch of ISIS and a opponent and competitor to the Taliban for power in Afghanistan. The Taliban itself have condemned this attack. This ISIS group was in Afghanistan blowing things up before the Taliban took power and it sounds like they will continue to be there blowing things up after the Taliban have taken power and the US has left. This is likely just the first shot in an endless and continuing civil war in Afghanistan that will continue long after we have left. Just like it was going on for decades before we even got there.

I expect the Administration is busy trying to gather accurate information on what actually happened, and determining what steps need to be taken as they move forward with the final stages of the evacuation. Do you expect them to rush forward with news briefings before anyone knows what actually happened and what the plan forward is going to be? It does not surprise me that they are being careful and deliberate.

How many terrorist bombings do you think have occurred in Afghanistan in the past year? The number is in the dozens, perhaps even hundreds. More reason than ever to be done with the place as we have no real interest in being there.

NOTE: As of last night the total number of evacuees had reached 97,000. At the pace they are going the number is probably well over 100,000 right now. Initial reports several months ago were that there were about 80,000 Afghans with ties to the US that had legitimate asylum claims. How many more do you think we should airlift out before we are done?

[Grace]

It appears this was an attack by a group called Islamic State Khorasan, or ISIS-K, which is a Pakistan branch of ISIS and a opponent and competitor to the Taliban for power in Afghanistan. The Taliban itself have condemned this attack. This ISIS group was in Afghanistan blowing things up before the Taliban took power and it sounds like they will continue to be there blowing things up after the Taliban have taken power and the US has left. This is likely just the first shot in an endless and continuing civil war in Afghanistan that will continue long after we have left. Just like it was going on for decades before we even got there.

I expect the Administration is busy trying to gather accurate information on what actually happened, and determining what steps need to be taken as they move forward with the final stages of the evacuation. Do you expect them to rush forward with news briefings before anyone knows what actually happened and what the plan forward is going to be? It does not surprise me that they are being careful and deliberate.

How many terrorist bombings do you think have occurred in Afghanistan in the past year? The number is in the dozens, perhaps even hundreds. More reason than ever to be done with the place as we have no real interest in being there.

NOTE: As of last night the total number of evacuees had reached 97,000. At the pace they are going the number is probably well over 100,000 right now. Initial reports several months ago were that there were about 80,000 Afghans with ties to the US that had legitimate asylum claims. How many more do you think we should airlift out before we are done?

There may be 80,000 Afghans with ties to the U.S. with legitimate asylum claims, but what good is that is they are blocked from entering the airport to leave?

As I said before, It's not that ANYONE wanted the war to continue or the troops to stay, it is the method of removing Americans, Afghan partners and special forces, that is a debacle. The US could have made moves to maintain control of the air base, moved people out in small numbers starting a long time back. Waiting until things were deteriorated to evacuate was foolish, especially since the administration was warned. It is like waiting till a ship is at the brink of sinking, before getting people in the life boats at the very last minute.

Then there is this :

600,000 weapons
75,000 vehicles
208 planes
All left behind in Afghanistan for the Taliban and ISIS, by Joe Biden.

[Ken]

It appears this was an attack by a group called Islamic State Khorasan, or ISIS-K, which is a Pakistan branch of ISIS and a opponent and competitor to the Taliban for power in Afghanistan. The Taliban itself have condemned this attack. This ISIS group was in Afghanistan blowing things up before the Taliban took power and it sounds like they will continue to be there blowing things up after the Taliban have taken power and the US has left. This is likely just the first shot in an endless and continuing civil war in Afghanistan that will continue long after we have left. Just like it was going on for decades before we even got there.

I expect the Administration is busy trying to gather accurate information on what actually happened, and determining what steps need to be taken as they move forward with the final stages of the evacuation. Do you expect them to rush forward with news briefings before anyone knows what actually happened and what the plan forward is going to be? It does not surprise me that they are being careful and deliberate.

How many terrorist bombings do you think have occurred in Afghanistan in the past year? The number is in the dozens, perhaps even hundreds. More reason than ever to be done with the place as we have no real interest in being there.

NOTE: As of last night the total number of evacuees had reached 97,000. At the pace they are going the number is probably well over 100,000 right now. Initial reports several months ago were that there were about 80,000 Afghans with ties to the US that had legitimate asylum claims. How many more do you think we should airlift out before we are done?

There may be 80,000 Afghans with ties to the U.S. with legitimate asylum claims, but what good is that is they are blocked from entering the airport to leave?

As I said before, It's not that ANYONE wanted the war to continue or the troops to stay, it is the method of removing Americans, Afghan partners and special forces, that is a debacle. The US could have made moves to maintain control of the air base, moved people out in small numbers starting a long time back. Waiting until things were deteriorated to evacuate was foolish, especially since the administration was warned. It is like waiting till a ship is at the brink of sinking, before getting people in the life boats at the very last minute.

Then there is this :

600,000 weapons
75,000 vehicles
208 planes
All left behind in Afghanistan for the Taliban and ISIS, by Joe Biden.

We were doing all of those things (evacuating civilians and such) long before August. The refugee visa approval system used to process Afghan refugees with valid asylum claims was indeed a fiasco, but that system was deliberately broken and dismantled by Trump not Biden.

As for all those weapons that you are hand-wringing about? Those were not US weapons left by US forces. Those are all weapons that were sold to the 300,000-strong Afghan Army which was the sovereign army of a sovereign state. They were the property of the government of Afghanistan. How many weapons do you think it takes to arm an ordinary infantry company of 100 men? Rifles, machine guns, sidearms, anti-tank weapons, mortars, grenades, mines, artillery, and spare parts and extras to replace those damaged and lost in battle? And how many vehicles do you think it takes to transport and support them? One might well argue that we should never have been in Afghanistan in the first place, and never have tried to build a modern Afghan army. But you can't have it both ways. You can't argue that the US should have supported the Afghan army and then hand-wring about the fact that they had lots of weapons. You would have preferred that the US build an Afghan army but issue them all toy guns?

[Ernie]

Here are the options the US had. What others are there?

1. Do not try to overthrow the Taliban in the first place and build a democracy in its place.
2. Attempt the overthrow/nation building for about 5 years, but not 20.
3. Attempt the overthrow/nation building until the Taliban are no longer a threat and the Afghan democracy shows that it can control the Taliban. (however long that takes)
4. Make agreements with the Taliban about when you will leave their territory, while making the emigration process difficult for non-combatant allies to leave the country.
5. Make agreements with the Taliban about when you will leave their territory, and then make the emigration process as easy and quick as possible for non-combatant allies so they can begin leaving right away.
6. Whenever the mission is deemed unsuccessful, remove non-combatant allies first and then the allied forces and hope for the best.
7. Whenever the mission is deemed unsuccessful, remove non-combatant allies first and then the allied forces but plan on a lot more people getting killed in the process.
8. Whenever the mission is deemed unsuccessful, remove allied forces first and then the non-combatant allies and hope for the best.
9. Whenever the mission is deemed unsuccessful, remove allied forces first and then the non-combatant allies but plan for a massive evacuation at the last minute.
10. Don't make agreements with the Taliban.

The choice between #4 and #5 seems quite simple to me.

The choice between #6 or #8 have both pros and cons. (this could be debated until the end of time)

The choice between #7 or #9 is a very difficult decision that I wouldn't wish on anybody.

[RZehr]

Yes, toy guns. All armies should only be equipped with toy guns. Nerf, rubber band, air soft. Why stop at nuclear treaties? Dial it all down.

[Ken]

Here are the options the US had. What others are there?

1. Do not try to overthrow the Taliban in the first place and build a democracy in its place.
2. Attempt the overthrow/nation building for about 5 years, but not 20.
3. Attempt the overthrow/nation building until the Taliban are no longer a threat and the Afghan democracy shows that it can control the Taliban. (however long that takes)
4. Make agreements with the Taliban about when you will leave their territory, while making the emigration process difficult for non-combatant allies to leave the country.
5. Make agreements with the Taliban about when you will leave their territory, and then make the emigration process as easy and quick as possible for non-combatant allies so they can begin leaving right away.
6. Whenever the mission is deemed unsuccessful, remove non-combatant allies first and then the allied forces and hope for the best.
7. Whenever the mission is deemed unsuccessful, remove non-combatant allies first and then the allied forces but plan on a lot more people getting killed in the process.
8. Whenever the mission is deemed unsuccessful, remove allied forces first and then the non-combatant allies and hope for the best.
9. Whenever the mission is deemed unsuccessful, remove allied forces first and then the non-combatant allies but plan for a massive evacuation at the last minute.
10. Don't make agreements with the Taliban.

The choice between #4 and #5 seems quite simple to me.

The choice between #6 or #8 have both pros and cons. (this could be debated until the end of time)

The choice between #7 or #9 is a very difficult decision that I wouldn't wish on anybody.

I think it is much simpler than that. Afghanistan have been a low-to-high intensity war zone since the Saur Revolution.

The US faces the same choices today as the day we invaded:

1. Kill them all
2. Annex the country
3. Jerk around for a while and then leave

After twenty years and $2,000,000,000,000 with zero affect we’ve done the “jerk around,” time to leave.

Rational person: All we are in Afghanistan is a target for people who hate us, we should leave.

Warmonger Press and neocons: All we are in Afghanistan is a target for people who hate us, but US credibility is at stake. Therefore, we should blow more stuff up and kill more people until they love us, and then we can leave.