Covid-19 Vaccines and Christian Ethics

[Soloist]

But for Moderna and Pfizer, it's HEK-293?

yes

Has anyone proposed sacrificing babies to make vaccines? I think that's different from using cells from someone who is already dead, for reasons that have nothing to do with vaccines.

I'm talking about future deaths here... Not just the past deaths, a point you seem to ignore.

Boot, will you commit to not using new fetal cells generated after 1972 for testing, medication or for vaccines? or is this just all relative to you?

This is not academic to me at all. I want to protect lives. I think you are saying that the only fetal cell lines came from HEK-293, a child killed in 1972?

Reread this and tell me what I'm saying

HEK-293 is the one being used for testing. There are many other cell lines being used for multiple medications/vaccines, pharmaceutical testing, product testing, incorporated in skin products...

So far, I don't really hear you talking about the other side of the equation - people who are now living, and who might be affected by your decision whether to get a Covid-19 vaccine or not. Of course, this is a statistical risk, but suppose you knew for a fact that someone might die because you chose not to get vaccinated, would you decide to kill them for the sake of a child who was killed in 1972, a child who cannot now be brought back to life?

Okay, man with the gun scenario... you already said you wouldn't pull the trigger. Why not? Same deal. Same outrage if you refused and many people died.

First off, the very fact that people openly discuss the ethics of vaccines is important, I think that epidemiologists are seeing that this matters to a lot of people. This is a reason that I looked for a vaccine that seemed ethical to me, at least at the time. I don't think I can stop abortion from happening, I doubt very much that vaccines are the cause of abortion or the reason that these children are being killed.

I think you really need to reread my post. You are evidently missing what I'm saying based on your questions.

If your basic ethical stance is that you will not do anything that "participates in the gains from abortion", I can understand and respect that. And I do appreciate you sharing, I want to hear what you have to say.

Basically that is sufficient.

My basic ethical stance is to preserve the lives of people who are now alive, either in the womb or after birth. But I don't want to do anything to encourage new abortions. Or to increase the risk that people might die of Covid-19.

Research surrounding abortion is a hot button topic. Pretty much everyone looks at donating the abortion as a way of easing the conscience... (generalization I know, but based on real conversations with people)

I don't think I completely understand your position yet, I know that you are hard line against vaccines, I don't yet understand how you weigh that against risk to people now living. Maybe the answer is that you are simply unwilling to do anything that profits from abortion, even if it means risking the lives of other people now living. If so, I can respect that, but I have not heard you say that

I am not hard lined against vaccines. I fully support the use of non-mandated vaccines. My objection is purely the use of fetal cells in any medication or any vaccine, be it testing or production or research derived.
I am not risking other's lives, I take decent precautions, I've actually had covid and no one outside of my family acquired it. I worked asymptomatically and if you knew me, you would know I am very cautious and to this date am still the only compliant nurse at my work in regard to hygiene and masking.

[nett]

You are essentially describing child sacrifices for your own health, I really it's real ingrained way of thinking, but extrapolate out what you're saying with some equivalent scenarios.

If I am murdered, I would still like my body to be used for science. It would be great if my murdered body could in some way save some lives. If I were murdered, would you reject any benefit that might come to you from the use of my body?

Jesus being murdered was the worst sin in the world. I benefit from it. Is that immoral?

Jesus willingly went to the cross, becoming the ultimate blood sacrifice, and making them no necessary.

[Josh]

I think it may be useful to start a few threads, with each of us who has a well defined position, defining what that position is. Then once we even know what each other's positions are, we can separately debate them.

[Bootstrap]

I was in my editor responding to them while you posted this.

I don't think I completely understand your position yet, I know that you are hard line against vaccines, I don't yet understand how you weigh that against risk to people now living. Maybe the answer is that you are simply unwilling to do anything that profits from abortion, even if it means risking the lives of other people now living. If so, I can respect that, but I have not heard you say that. As I understand your position, I think you do believe that Covid-19 kills significant numbers of people.

Perhaps you do understand my position, but there are some places where my position is not yet fully formed. I'm really not interested in a debate to prove whose position is right, I am more interested in understanding the reasons behind various views on this question.

I don't think he is hard line against vaccines. He is hard line against vaccines that have a link to abortion.

True. Thanks for the correction.

[nett]

I believe abortion is wrong.

I do not believe that using parts from aborted children motivates or increases abortions. As I would be happy to have my body parts being used for good, however I might die, I do not think it dishonors the dead to use their remains for the good of others.

Therefore I have no moral qualms about using medical solutions that used cell lines that originated from abortions.

You are essentially describing child sacrifices for your own health, I really it's real ingrained way of thinking, but extrapolate out what you're saying with some equivalent scenarios.

You live in a village that is planning to sacrifice a living baby to Moloch to gain a favorable harvest. All you have to do to gain that blessing, is appear at the ritual.

The child will be sacrificed whether you show up or not. The village leaders have assured everyone this is for the common good. The more people show up, the better the chances that Moloch will be pleased ("herd" crop blessing).

Will you go?

That analogy doesn't seem entirely apt. In this case, the reason the child was killed has nothing at all to do with the vaccine or hope of a richer harvest, there's no religious ritual. For the Covid-19 vaccines, one child was killed in 1972, we don't know why the mother chose to have an abortion, but I doubt very much that she was thinking of vaccines. I don't want to make light of any abortion, but that's a very different situation than what you describe.

I also assume that the reason you do not get a vaccine has nothing to do with a desire to make people die of Covid-19. Probably best not to go overboard with this kind of inflammatory analogy. Let's stick with the basics: what is likely to increase abortion? what is likely to increase Covid-19 deaths? How do we navigate that?

Do you have reason to believe that the choices we make about vaccines will increase or decrease the rate of abortion in the United States?

You missed the entire point. It's about participating in group sin for your own gain.

I also think abortion is about a richer harvest for the west than you realize. Children are viewed a liability, and net detractor from personal wealth. A mother sacrifices her child to gain wealth, comfort, status etc for herself and that benefits society (according to pro-choice murder advocates).

As Christians we have to decide whether we will participate in that benefit, and necessarily accept responsibility for the sin as well.

[Josh]

I don't think I completely understand your position yet, I know that you are hard line against vaccines, I don't yet understand how you weigh that against risk to people now living. Maybe the answer is that you are simply unwilling to do anything that profits from abortion, even if it means risking the lives of other people now living. If so, I can respect that, but I have not heard you say that. As I understand your position, I think you do believe that Covid-19 kills significant numbers of people.

This is a difficult problem that I have faced as well. It is very difficult to explain one's position without the person you are talking to immediately thinking you are just an "anti-vaxxer". I'm not; I'd gladly go and get a TDAP shot if I needed one, and my wife got one a few months before our baby was born. If we have another baby we plan to do it again.

There seem to be several positions here (and people in those board who represent all of them), I think it's worth writing up in a separate thread what each of them are so we can better understand each other.

[Bootstrap]

First off, the very fact that people openly discuss the ethics of vaccines is important, I think that epidemiologists are seeing that this matters to a lot of people. This is a reason that I looked for a vaccine that seemed ethical to me, at least at the time. I don't think I can stop abortion from happening, I doubt very much that vaccines are the cause of abortion or the reason that these children are being killed.

I think you really need to reread my post. You are evidently missing what I'm saying based on your questions.

That may be true, but I'm not sure just re-reading your post will help. I suspect you think you have answered my question, showing me that getting the Moderna vaccine can result in more babies being killed. I have read your post several times, but I don't yet see that connection.

I suspect that's really where we differ. If I thought getting the Moderna vaccine would result in more abortions, I would not have gotten it. It's quite possible that we are both approaching this honestly, but coming to different conclusions. That's fairly normal.

[Ken]

Do you have reason to believe that the choices we make about vaccines will increase or decrease the rate of abortion in the United States?

Irrelevant. This isn't about some line graph as to how many abortions and if we can decrease it. Its about our involvement with sin. We keep circling this question on multiple threads and its been answered several times to positions of several members on the forum. I doubt my position is unknown, your position is fairly well known. I presented some ethical analysis for you to consider in a previous post if you care to respond to answers to your question.

It is really about where we draw the line. And everyone does that at a different point that is ultimately somewhat arbitrary but also where they are personally comfortable. I think the lines are pretty gray.

For example, you object to the vaccine for yourself based on a complicated and distant connection to stem cells and abortion. Based on what you call an "involvement with sin." Which is fine. I respect your position. But you apparently do not object to working for an organization that promotes vaccines for others and makes money off this and other therapies that may use stem cells. If your employer administers vaccines then some portion of your salary has that same connection to sin. You are making money off it. Medicare pays $40 for every Covid shot a clinic provides. Others might choose to draw the line in a different place and refuse to work for any organization that promotes and profits from vaccines or other therapies derived from stem cell research. Still others may organize their lives such that they don't even pay any taxes that might be used for vaccine research and production. That is a position taken by some pacifists regarding military funding. Others may make a cost-benefit calculation and come out leaning in the other direction as the Catholic church has done.

You have to draw the line where it is comfortable for you based on the arguments and criteria that are most important to you. But it will feel like an arbitrary line to others, just like lines that others draw will feel arbitrary to you.

[Bootstrap]

You missed the entire point. It's about participating in group sin for your own gain.

That's a clear statement of where you stand - and I think it's similar to what Soloist is saying. Would you take that same stance whether or not it would actually change the number of abortions, and even if it might result in more Covid-19 deaths?

I also think abortion is about a richer harvest for the west than you realize. Children are viewed a liability, and net detractor from personal wealth. A mother sacrifices her child to gain wealth, comfort, status etc for herself and that benefits society (according to pro-choice murder advocates).

As Christians we have to decide whether we will participate in that benefit, and necessarily accept responsibility for the sin as well.

Yes, those are reasons that many parents choose to kill their babies. I don't think vaccines is high on the list. If we want to reduce abortions, I believe that working with young mothers and families or adopting babies will probably make more of a difference than choosing not to be vaccinated.

[nett]

We keep circling this question on multiple threads and its been answered several times to positions of several members on the forum. I doubt my position is unknown, your position is fairly well known. I presented some ethical analysis for you to consider in a previous post if you care to respond to answers to your question.

I was in my editor responding to them while you posted this.

I don't think I completely understand your position yet, I know that you are hard line against vaccines, I don't yet understand how you weigh that against risk to people now living. Maybe the answer is that you are simply unwilling to do anything that profits from abortion, even if it means risking the lives of other people now living. If so, I can respect that, but I have not heard you say that. As I understand your position, I think you do believe that Covid-19 kills significant numbers of people.

Perhaps you do understand my position, but there are some places where my position is not yet fully formed. I'm really not interested in a debate to prove whose position is right, I am more interested in understanding the reasons behind various views on this question.

I believe in the past, arguments for a great deal of evil, idolatry, child sacrifice, temple prostitution, etc was advocated for in the name of public good. Christians are not supposed to participate in evil, even if it's supposedly for the public common good.

There is a fundamental dissonance in jeopardizing an entire generation's mental health, and another's development health (see baby IQ study) to extend the life of unhealthy 80 year olds. It doesn't make any sense.

One thing about being a christian is accepting our physical death due to a variety of inescapable reasons, and understanding that our duty before God is to take up our cross daily as Christ did.

I think a perfect example would be godly elderly people choosing to allow life to go on, even though it may limit their relative freedoms ( in this case voluntarily distancing themselves), or shorten their lives (if they choose to continue living life as normal) by at most a few years, when the alternative is to literally ruin the next few generations.

The above is exactly what I have observed in our church during the COVID panic. Despite our congregation being mostly elderly people, some of whom are quite frail. We never masked, and only stopped meeting for a short time. We had one elderly man die of a respiratory illness while we were not meeting. While it was coded as COVID, the family is confident it was something else. His elderly wife mourned his loss, but did not blame anti-maskers or anyone else. She just accepted it was his time to go home.

We had a few other deaths, a retired minister died of colon cancer, and his wife died very shortly after, he was suffering a great deal, and his wife was ready to go with her husband.

My greatest regret throughout the COVID crisis was not attending these two funerals. We had a young baby in the house, and I gave into fear of COVID that kept us confined to our house for far too long. It's always a mistake to let fear of death drive our decisions, and in the case of COVID, all of the fear was based on essentially fake news.