The withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan

[temporal1]

The above post was made before I had witnessed the plane trying to leave the tarmac yesterday. Totally heart wrenching. This could really really get bad.

You folks really need a strong leader right now.
I hope there is someone that can pick up the pieces because there will be a lot of pieces.

Prayers also for the many Vietnam veterans and other veterans who suffer with PTSD. Some on this forum.

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2018 / Page 1 / Good things .. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1343

I’ve said this before- but I think his aggressive and unpredictable negotiating style may advantage him with dictators and autocrats -
like Kim Jong Un, over and against more diplomatic and placating presidents like Obama.

[Ken]

The above post was made before I had witnessed the plane trying to leave the tarmac yesterday. Totally heart wrenching. This could really really get bad.

You folks really need a strong leader right now.
I hope there is someone that can pick up the pieces because there will be a lot of pieces.

Prayers also for the many Vietnam veterans and other veterans who suffer with PTSD. Some on this forum.

- - - - - - -

2018 / Page 1 / Good things .. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1343

I’ve said this before- but I think his aggressive and unpredictable negotiating style may advantage him with dictators and autocrats -
like Kim Jong Un, over and against more diplomatic and placating presidents like Obama.

Just for the same of curiosity since you brought up Vietnam and North Korea.

1. What are the lessons of Vietnam and the fall of Saigon that should have been applied here? That we should have stayed longer in Vietnam or left earlier?

2. What exactly do you think that Trump accomplished in North Korea with Kim Jong-Un that Obama and previous presidents did not?

Personally I think the sudden "fall" of Kabul and Afghanistan this week have proven both Trump and Biden right. Recent events make clear that the Afghan state and army were nothing more than an illusion that couldn't withstand first contact with a post-US Afghanistan. Staying for weeks or months or years longer would have done nothing but delay the inevitable. As for the messiness of the current withdrawal? Yes to some extent that is on Biden as commander in chief. But whatever operational withdrawal plans were in place would have been developed by the Pentagon over the course of years. I'm sure we will eventually get a blow-by-blow detailed history of the decision-making involved here. But I see no evidence that Biden went in a different direction from the course already laid out by Trump. If there was some Trump-era master plan that he tore up and substituted with his own judgement then I will be happy be proven wrong.

[QuietObserver]

From Twitter...

"we should have done the withdrawal in the winter when cold weather, snowed in passes, and poppy cultivation would have kept the Taliban immobilized."

The end result would have been the same, but it would have given time for personnel to evacuate.

[Ken]

From Twitter...

"we should have done the withdrawal in the winter when cold weather, snowed in passes, and poppy cultivation would have kept the Taliban immobilized."

The end result would have been the same, but it would have given time for personnel to evacuate.

So last winter or this winter? Do you think they would have waited? When Biden came into office there were not enough US troops left in Afghanistan to hold Kabul, much less the rest of the country. The deal that Trump cut with the Taliban was for US departure by May 1st.

In any event, from what I understand, this isn't some outside force that would be "immobilized" There were Taliban all over the country building strength and when the final push happened a lot of them just dug their weapons out of storage and walked outside their front doors. They didn't come from anywhere, they were already there.

News reports are also starting to trickle out that a lot of top Afghan leadership in the army and government seem to have cut some sort of a deal with the Taliban to not fight. There were reports of the president of Afghanistan exiting Kabul with four helicopter loads of cash or some such. I expect there is going to be a whole lot more to this story that will eventually come out.

One point I would make. So far the transition to Taliban control seems to have been all but bloodless, with barely a shot fired. If this end was inevitable anyway, the question I would have for critics is how much bloodshed would have satisfied you? There were suggestions upstream that Trump would have used air strikes to delay the Taliban's advance. If fighting had been hard and fierce and had led to the same result in a month or so but with tens of thousands dead, would that have been a better result if it had given US personnel a more leisurely time to pack up and leave?

[PetrChelcicky]

My question here is: Where were the professional "peacemakers" and what did they do?
I have no idea about the U.S. force. But I know that a well-known member of the German peace movement was there in a position as advisor to the German army.
There is an astonishing number of colleges and universities who teach peacebuilding.My question: Are the high promises and expectations accompanied by comparable efforts and successes?

[Ken]

My question here is: Where were the professional "peacemakers" and what did they do?
I have no idea about the U.S. force. But I know that a well-known member of the German peace movement was there in a position as advisor to the German army.
There is an astonishing number of colleges and universities who teach peacebuilding.My question: Are the high promises and expectations accompanied by comparable efforts and successes?

Sounds like they did their job. There are widespread reports of Taliban using a combination of threats and bribes to get Afghan army units to lay down their arms and walk away. The whole transition of power seems to have been largely bloodless and without hardly a shot fired. Compared to the current situation in other countries like Syria and Yemen this change of power has been accomplished remarkably violence-free. Someone seems to have made that happen.

Or are you assuming that only foreigners who went to special programs in colleges and universities are capable of peacebuilding?

[temporal1]

Ken:
.. There were suggestions upstream ..

well, yes, you keep repeating yourself.
others, and i agree, have noted DJT’s signature aggressive language resulted in less military violence, not more.

altho it’s popular in today’s promoted lib mindset, words are not equal to physical violence/actions.
words can scare and hurt, words have use and meaning. but they are not military violence.

[Ken]

Some more details about who was doing the "peacemaking"

The spectacular collapse of Afghanistan’s military that allowed Taliban fighters to walk into the Afghan capital Sunday despite 20 years of training and billions of dollars in American aid began with a series of deals brokered in rural villages between the militant group and some of the Afghan government’s lowest-ranking officials.

The deals, initially offered early last year, were often described by Afghan officials as cease-fires, but Taliban leaders were in fact offering money in exchange for government forces to hand over their weapons, according to an Afghan officer and a U.S. official.

Over the next year and a half, the meetings advanced to the district level and then rapidly on to provincial capitals, culminating in a breathtaking series of negotiated surrenders by government forces, according to interviews with more than a dozen Afghan officers, police, special operations troops and other soldiers.

Within a little more than a week, Taliban fighters overran more than a dozen provincial capitals and entered Kabul with no resistance, triggering the departure of Afghanistan’s president and the collapse of his government. Afghan security forces in the districts ringing Kabul and in the city itself simply melted away. By nightfall, police checkpoints were left abandoned and the militants roamed the streets freely.

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... e-taliban/

[Josh]

My question here is: Where were the professional "peacemakers" and what did they do?
I have no idea about the U.S. force. But I know that a well-known member of the German peace movement was there in a position as advisor to the German army.
There is an astonishing number of colleges and universities who teach peacebuilding.My question: Are the high promises and expectations accompanied by comparable efforts and successes?

My answer: no

CPT can’t get people in Chicago to quit shooting each other, much less help in global conflicts.

[Grace]

It's not that ANYONE wanted the war to continue. It's that Biden so badly bungled the exit. He left Americans and loyal Afghans who helped the United States for 20 years,BEHIND, as well as technology, equipment and guns. Add to that, yesterday he lied about various aspects of the exit. He said the "buck stops here" and said the withdrawal falls on his shoulders. Then he went on the blame the Afghan people, Trump, other presidents and intelligence agencies. He didn't even acknowledge some of the terrible things going on right now.

Matt Zeller explains it very well.