Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan

[temporal1]

boot:
The current president always gets the blame.

No president inherits a clean slate.

Judgment comes from their response to messes, not that there are not messes. If there weren’t messes, no need of POTUS, right?

This was a fault of obama, blaming W for so many years, even his supporters grew weary. They are now BFFs.
It would be great for the blame game to go away. Stop pretending.

[temporal1]

Even though he said he was going to have them all out by May?

It’s impossible to say.
The only thing that can be known is, DJT had unpredicted success with averting military violence.
That was not enough for many U.S. voters. Including some COs. So we will never know.

Well, we have his own word and that of his Secretary of State. Is that any good? This was from last fall, leading up to the election.



And this was the GOP platform during the 2020 election

you seem to be failing to get my point, that it is unknown and unknowable, how things would be today, if DJT were in office.
possibly you presume (as you are being told to presume) that withdrawal by any U.S. president would have had the same results.

i’m not in agreement with that presumption. it MIGHT be correct, but there is VALID reason to question, because of DJT’s record of averting military violence/disaster. it cannot be known what else might have played out in the months prior. neither can it be known how the Taliban, Saudi Arabia, etc., would have behaved with DJT in office. totally different dynamics.

i find it cheap+lazy to just presume any POTUS in office would have resulted in the same outcome.

biden was not elected on promises of “being the same” as DJT. DJT was touted as “The Indisputable Worst” and biden was supposed to be exponentially better. promises, promises.

now, the story is: “shrug, they’re all the same.” how convenient.

DJT’s 2016-2020 record is pretty good. that, alone, should have secured his second term. if any level honesty were employed.

[temporal1]

you persist in ignoring the fact that 2 different leaders could have 2 different results with the same action.
and, ignoring the paths getting there might be different, further enhancing the possibility of different responses.
and, that it is unknown and unknowable what might have unfolded and how.

certainly biden and his buddies want to sell a narrative that will reflect the best possible on him/them.
intellectual laziness is not their worst self indulgence.

2 different teachers may present identical curriculum, one may be highly sucessful, the other lackluster.
2 parents may “lay down the law” to their children, one may get results, the other ignored.

it happens everyday. on every level.

it will never be known, “what if?”

[Ernie]

Here is a thread to discuss anything you would like regarding the 20 year war and nation building effort in Afghanistan referred to as "Operation Enduring Freedom"

[JimFoxvog]

It was a mistake in the first place. Every year the US stayed was a continuing mistake.

[Grace]

It was a mistake in the first place. Every year the US stayed was a continuing mistake.

I tend to agree. United States troops being in Afghanistan for 20 years saw four presidents, two Democrats and two Republicans. After 20 years I can't fault any president for removing the troops. However the method it is being done now, is horrible, lacking in forethought, and fraught with lies from a clueless administration. They should have made sure all United States citizens and all Afghan partners who aided the troops were out of the country before removing the troops. Not to be crass, but you can be sure that some of the Afghan partners who aided the troops, will be missing their heads some time in the future. And that falls squarely on Biden.

[steve-in-kville]

I normally don't weigh in on this stuff but I agree. We should have gotten out long already. It was nothing but politics. We should have brought those troops home to their families long already.

[temporal1]

fwiw,
i did not start this thread.
i don’t object to it. but not of my doing.

(i think) these posts were moved from another thread, Ernie’s, now assigned a new subject line:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4038

i don’t object.
the topic is sad+confusing, no matter how it’s approached.

[Ken]

you persist in ignoring the fact that 2 different leaders could have 2 different results with the same action.
and, ignoring the paths getting there might be different, further enhancing the possibility of different responses.
and, that it is unknown and unknowable what might have unfolded and how.

certainly biden and his buddies want to sell a narrative that will reflect the best possible on him/them.
intellectual laziness is not their worst self indulgence.

2 different teachers may present identical curriculum, one may be highly sucessful, the other lackluster.
2 parents may “lay down the law” to their children, one may get results, the other ignored.

it happens everyday. on every level.

it will never be known, “what if?”

I'm not "ignoring the fact". I'm disputing it.

I think Trump was right to start the process of withdrawing from Afghanistan. I am happy to give credit where credit is due. But I don't think he had any magic fairy dust that he could sprinkle over the situation that would have produced any different result. Nor do I think the Taliban were pliable students who were just waiting for Trump to educate them. This isn't on the Taliban anyway. They have taken the entire country with hardy a shot fired which is a huge success on their part. This is on America's puppet government and army that collapsed without firing a shot. The notion that Trump could have instilled some backbone into the Afghan government and security forces that Biden could not is just magical thinking and not supported by any kind of facts and evidence.

The American occupation of Afghanistan spanned four presidencies and two decades. The fact that the current Afghan government and armed forces collapsed so fast and without a fight is proof positive that the entire Afghanistan adventure was hubris. We should have gotten out 20 years ago after beating back Al-Qaeda (the actual 9-11 terrorists) in Tora Bora in 2001. To my knowledge the Taliban have never once in their 30+ year existence sent terrorists to the US or to attack US targets outside of Afghanistan. That is mostly on the Saudis who for some reason <<<oil>>> are still our allies.

[temporal1]

No “magic fairy dust.” ^^^
Robert does a nice job of describing how leaders function differently, and response to different approaches varies:

I think that if President Trump was still in office, the transition would have been slower, but the same end result.

I also think he would have put pressure on some other Middle East states through his work on the Abraham Accords.
I actually think he would have brought more states into that and it would have been able to put more pressure on the Taliban.
He would have also used air power to slow the speed of advance, but I also think that the end would have been close to the same.

People in the Middle East and other countries knew President Trump would hit back.
This would have slowed the process.

Few are afraid of President Biden. Maybe that will be a long term good thing. Not sure. President Trump was peace through strength. President Biden seems to be peace through inaction. He can be a war hawk, so that may change.

I am sad that the Taliban have taken over the country. Their brand of Islam with Sharia Law is very abusive, but most seem to want it. Maybe they will find a balance and can become a functioning society. I hope so.

The withdrawal ends a 20 year mistake.

i’m glad to read this. it’s a sort of follow up to your 2018 post i quoted on Page 1 in this thread.
i would differ in that i would not speculate about end results. too many variables in there for me to speculate.

career politicians and the MIC are tight. biden has already bombed Syria. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3636
so. i’m not expecting any surprises.

DJT surprised.
not supporter or opponent, i was pleasantly surprised. his opponents were dismayed: “he cannot be allowed.”
so, back to SOP.