Who is the real Charles Finney, America’s greatest revivalist?

[Josh]

Regardless, I don’t want to adopt Finney’s methods and generally speaking I think American revivalism is harmful and not biblical.

[Sudsy]

Regardless, I don’t want to adopt Finney’s methods and generally speaking I think American revivalism is harmful and not biblical.

From a biblical perspective what do you think will bring more people into the Kingdom ? And do you see this showing results wherever it is practised ?

[Josh]

Regardless, I don’t want to adopt Finney’s methods and generally speaking I think American revivalism is harmful and not biblical.

From a biblical perspective what do you think will bring more people into the Kingdom ? And do you see this showing results wherever it is practised ?

I don’t really think the revivalists brought anyone into “the kingdom” at all.

In terms of numbers of who wins the most converts to Christianity, the Catholics and Orthodox do the best.

[Sudsy]

Regardless, I don’t want to adopt Finney’s methods and generally speaking I think American revivalism is harmful and not biblical.

From a biblical perspective what do you think will bring more people into the Kingdom ? And do you see this showing results wherever it is practised ?

I don’t really think the revivalists brought anyone into “the kingdom” at all.

In terms of numbers of who wins the most converts to Christianity, the Catholics and Orthodox do the best.

Since you did not capitalize 'kingdom', I take it you were talking about another kingdom than the Kingdom of God that I was talking about.

When I say 'bringing more people into the Kingdom', I'm not talking about 'converts to Christianity', which can mean different things to professing Christians, but rather leading people to Jesus the result being they are born again and become Christ followers through the enabling power of the Holy Spirit.

Millions have been converted (given a new heart by God) by those who some call 'revivalists' . So, I'm not sure what you are getting at unless you think people like Wesley, Whitefield, Graham, Booth and many more did not really lead people to becoming Kingdom Citizens by being born again.

[Josh]

When I say 'bringing more people into the Kingdom', I'm not talking about 'converts to Christianity', which can mean different things to professing Christians, but rather leading people to Jesus the result being they are born again and become Christ followers through the enabling power of the Holy Spirit.

Millions have been converted (given a new heart by God) by those who some call 'revivalists' . So, I'm not sure what you are getting at unless you think people like Wesley, Whitefield, Graham, Booth and many more did not really lead people to becoming Kingdom Citizens by being born again.

The Catholic and Orthodox churches, on the other hand, have done so to the tune of billions. And no, I don't have a great deal of respect for the legacy of people like Wesley, Whitefield, Graham, and Booth; a lot of their so-called "conversions" are from people who already grew up in some kind of Christian religion and merely changed affiliations. Ultimately, that doesn't lead to long-term, good results, as we can see today: exactly where is the legacy of these people? John Wesley's legacy in the U.K. is a church that openly endorses cohabitation (let alone gay marriage). That's not building Jesus' kingdom, that's precisely the opposite of it.

I don't think Jesus' kingdom exists apart from Jesus' church, even though there are born again people who aren't currently part of any church.

[Sudsy]

When I say 'bringing more people into the Kingdom', I'm not talking about 'converts to Christianity', which can mean different things to professing Christians, but rather leading people to Jesus the result being they are born again and become Christ followers through the enabling power of the Holy Spirit.

Millions have been converted (given a new heart by God) by those who some call 'revivalists' . So, I'm not sure what you are getting at unless you think people like Wesley, Whitefield, Graham, Booth and many more did not really lead people to becoming Kingdom Citizens by being born again.

The Catholic and Orthodox churches, on the other hand, have done so to the tune of billions. And no, I don't have a great deal of respect for the legacy of people like Wesley, Whitefield, Graham, and Booth; a lot of their so-called "conversions" are from people who already grew up in some kind of Christian religion and merely changed affiliations. Ultimately, that doesn't lead to long-term, good results, as we can see today: exactly where is the legacy of these people? John Wesley's legacy in the U.K. is a church that openly endorses cohabitation (let alone gay marriage). That's not building Jesus' kingdom, that's precisely the opposite of it.

I don't think Jesus' kingdom exists apart from Jesus' church, even though there are born again people who aren't currently part of any church.

I guess you have a different view than I do regarding 'legacy'. I don't see these soul winners being responsible for where the groups they founded ended up. When I read their sermons and what they believed, most, imo, would be today thrown out of the churches that still consider them as their founders. We have a Wesley United Church here in our city and what I know of their beliefs and practise today, imo, if he could, John Wesley would not be associated with that church.

Jesus Kingdom is where Jesus rules and His Church is today not represented by any church established by man no matter what they call it. Jesus Church is made up of those who know Him as personal Lord and Saviour. There are thousands of gatherings of believers in what they call a 'church' and some think that they alone are the Church. In the NT the Church is referred to as the gathering of believers in a certain city. No other name. Too bad man didn't keep it that way but instead man did what began in the church (gathering place) in Corinth and started to say we follow this guy or that guy. Paul rebuked them but here we are today still referring to the teachings of some 'church founders' when Paul, by the Spirit, said not to. Another area of our disobedience yet God didn't allow that to stop Him from still building His Church. Is this 'deliberate disobedience' or 'struggling disobedience'. (Oh, sorry that's the other thread )

YMMV.