Minimum wage: how much is too much?

[Soloist]

Mike... I would to like to know what you expect a lifestyle to look like.

These properties are farther away from church, so you have gas costs which are skyrocketing right now, you have your own medical costs unless you belong to a church permitting Medicaid, what about school? church school would add on substantial gas costs. I think what a few people are suggesting is that you are disconnected from the reality of the poor. Which it sounds horrible to call someone making 25$ an hour poor, but how about the medical costs of birth? Are you expecting these new families to not have children for years? Ken at least gets it in terms of owning your own house... its not very practical making that kind of money.

[Ken]

I think part of the problem is that we have utterly unrealistic ideas of what is reasonable and normal in terms of lifestyle and incomes in this country. It simply isn't sustainable to think that every blue collar worker can afford a 2500 sf home in the suburbs with two cars and a boat.

Bingo. Exactly what I was trying to say. We are spoiled in this country on many levels such our expectations for lifestyle, working hours, leisure time, etc.

I would love to know what you would consider to be a reasonable expectation with regards to lifestyle, working hours, leisure time, etc. Also any other random things that you think are unrealistic for blue collar workers. I’m genuinely curious what people’s thoughts are on this.

I don't think it is possible or easy in many parts of the country, largely due to the cost of housing. And the cost of housing is largely driven by things like zoning which mandates single family homes with minimum square feet, minimum lot sizes, and so forth. The problem is especially acute in states like California where NIMBYs use the levers of power to prevent any change that would make life more affordable for those with less.

I do think many people's lives could be greatly improved by just two things: (1) increases in wages, and (2) reduced housing costs. But I don't think it is reasonable in a country of 330 million people to expect that everyone can afford a 2500 sf home on a 5 acre lot in the country.

[mike]

I think part of the problem is that we have utterly unrealistic ideas of what is reasonable and normal in terms of lifestyle and incomes in this country. It simply isn't sustainable to think that every blue collar worker can afford a 2500 sf home in the suburbs with two cars and a boat.

Bingo. Exactly what I was trying to say. We are spoiled in this country on many levels such our expectations for lifestyle, working hours, leisure time, etc.

Says the guy who owns an RV and goes on vacation for weeks while others posting here don't even dream of such priveliges and are losing sleep to work extra to just buy food for their family... We don't expect the luxuries you have - and since you don't get that it seems your focus is on expectations - don't place your mindset on us please.

You may notice, brother, that I used the term "we" because I am speaking to myself and those in my country. You may also notice that a lot of what I have been saying is clearly not relevant to your situation in BC, and I have not been meaning to speak to that at all, or to place my mindset on you. But that aside, yes, I am blessed and privileged beyond many people in this country and in this world. Were I across the table from you I would be happy to let you know just how much more God has blessed me than what you are aware. You don't know the half if you think that that is the extent of my wealth.

[Ken]

Ken mentioned public transportation in his wife's parent's home area. Public transportation has gone severely backwards here in the States. When my mom was still living at home with her parents (she attended a Christian HS for a couple of years, in a Mennonite community around 4 hours away) she could catch a city bus into Tulsa, where she worked for some filthy-rich people, getting their children dressed & ready for school, and house cleaning. They (my grandparents) lived around 18 to 20 miles from downtown Tulsa, and the people she worked for probably lived on the other side of Tulsa, as that's where the wealthy lived. Her bus fare was less than a penny. (The bus line issued mil tokens - 10 per one cent.) Now, even though there are thousands more fancy houses within a radius of several miles of where the farm was located, I'm nigh on to certain that there is absolutely no public transportation of any kind.)

This is what the metro looks like in Santiago Chile. When I send my teenage kids down to visit their grandparents and cousins (pre-Covid) they would navigate it on their own with no problems and get around the city safely. Fares are about $0.50 and paid by tapping a rechargeable card or cell phone app.



If they want to ride out to Vina del Mar on the coast to visit their aunt and uncle who have a house on the coast they can hop inter-urban buses that look like this, run every hour or so, and charge about $10 for the 2-hour trip.



It is quite easy to navigate both urban and rural areas by transit. An option that does not exist in most of the US because we are so wedded to our cars.
Just another example of how life can be harder for the poor in this country.

[Soloist]

Bingo. Exactly what I was trying to say. We are spoiled in this country on many levels such our expectations for lifestyle, working hours, leisure time, etc.

Says the guy who owns an RV and goes on vacation for weeks while others posting here don't even dream of such priveliges and are losing sleep to work extra to just buy food for their family... We don't expect the luxuries you have - and since you don't get that it seems your focus is on expectations - don't place your mindset on us please.

You may notice, brother, that I used the term "we" because I am speaking to myself and those in my country. You may also notice that a lot of what I have been saying is clearly not relevant to your situation in BC, and I have not been meaning to speak to that at all, or to place my mindset on you. But that aside, yes, I am blessed and privileged beyond many people in this country and in this world. Were I across the table from you I would be happy to let you know just how much more God has blessed me than what you are aware. You don't know the half if you think that that is the extent of my wealth.

I would love to know your response for your brothers who live in the same country... Seems to me that you are quite well off and detached from reality of poverty.

[Sliceitup]

It is quite easy to navigate both urban and rural areas by transit. An option that does not exist in most of the US because we are so wedded to our cars.

Mass transit is not practical in rural areas. To illustrate why I need to tell you about several siblings who attended different schools. Several of the siblings attended a private school that was a 30 minute drive from their home. But with a bus route it got close to, or exceeded, 60 minutes. And everyone, from kindergarten through seniors in high school took this bus, which mean that students who legally didn’t need as many hours, still had to be at school by 7:50 am so that the high school students were there on time. Now I’m not sure what your thoughts are on getting 6 year old children up in order to be on a bus by 7am, and the child doesn’t come home until 4pm, but it’s impractical at best.

There was another sibling who attended the local public school. This child had a 20 minute bus ride. And the elementary, intermediate, middle and high school each had their own staggered bus schedule, so the elementary students could have a reasonable, age appropriate, amount of time spent in school, rather than the same amount of hours as a high school student. This was possible because of the volume of students all within a small geographic area. Picking up 150 students across three counties is not even remotely similar in its cost efficiency.

[Wade]

Bingo. Exactly what I was trying to say. We are spoiled in this country on many levels such our expectations for lifestyle, working hours, leisure time, etc.

Says the guy who owns an RV and goes on vacation for weeks while others posting here don't even dream of such priveliges and are losing sleep to work extra to just buy food for their family... We don't expect the luxuries you have - and since you don't get that it seems your focus is on expectations - don't place your mindset on us please.

You may notice, brother, that I used the term "we" because I am speaking to myself and those in my country. You may also notice that a lot of what I have been saying is clearly not relevant to your situation in BC, and I have not been meaning to speak to that at all, or to place my mindset on you. But that aside, yes, I am blessed and privileged beyond many people in this country and in this world. Were I across the table from you I would be happy to let you know just how much more God has blessed me than what you are aware. You don't know the half if you think that that is the extent of my wealth.

I think I'm rich with only half as many born children as you!

[Josh]

Ken,

The problem is that affordable, safe housing on small city lots basically doesn’t exist anymore. You can only do it if you live in a dangerous neighbourhood.

If you have access to a private school this decision is a little easier since you can at least choose a place with bad public schools.

For non Mennonites, the outlook is very bleak.

So what is the better solution? Work to make existing neighborhoods safer and improve public schools? Or pave over productive urban farmland to build $700,000 homes on 3/4 acre lots?

I grant you the situation is more grim in some of the crumbling rust-belt cities in your part of the world. I have a cousin who is in real estate in suburban Columbus. She buys urban homes in places like Dayton for $10k and flips them. Which seems ridiculous to me as that is the price of an average used car. But I guess it is working out as she hasn't gone broke yet.

I have no ability to improve public schools, but I do what I can for private schools I’m involved with.

I can’t exactly make existing neighbourhoods safer, particularly when George Soros is funding defunding the police and getting DAs elected who won’t prosecute crime. When it’s open season to smash windows and burn down buildings, we’re going to get more unsafe neighbourhoods, not less.

[Sliceitup]

I’m still anxiously waiting on the reasonable lifestyle expectations for blue collar workers.

[mike]

I would love to know your response for your brothers who live in the same country... Seems to me that you are quite well off and detached from reality of poverty.

I’m still anxiously waiting on the reasonable lifestyle expectations for blue collar workers.

Sorry I was out fixing an IT issue on one of our PCs at work. Don't know if that qualifies as a blue collar job, but it did have me blue in the face for a while.

I don't really know what to say, as I have never been even close to poor. All I know to do is share some of my personal story. When I married, we bought a house that was destroyed by pets and in bad condition with a leaking roof and fixed it up on a shoestring budget. I was teaching school for $18K a year in a Mennonite school. Most of our cash on hand when we got married was immediately needed to make urgent home repairs. We decided to have children as God gave them to us. Our first child was born by emergency C-section which our church paid the majority of. I had to borrow money from my dad to pay for heating oil. Our second child came 11 months after our first. We worked after school to make a little extra income. We drove old cars, bought food from bent and dent stores, got stuff at auctions and yard sales. I borrowed from my dad for the down payment on the house, and he co-signed the loan or we would not have had credit to buy. Every spare dollar went to extra payments on the mortgage.

However, we were not poor. The rest of our children, with one exception, were home births or at our midwife's house for a very reasonable cost, and we were blessed with healthy children and no major medical expenses. With the help of the Earned Income and Child Tax credits we got back then, we paid off our mortgage and the loan to my dad early, in about ten years, and sold the house for almost twice what we paid for it when we moved due to work. So no, I do not know what it is to be poor. But I do know what it is like to work within a small income being content with what we could afford in terms of possessions. We ate food other people wouldn't eat, drove cars other people wouldn't drive, bought furniture other people wouldn't buy, and fixed up things that other people wouldn't fix up. But we were never poor. We enjoyed family and community support in ways that the average person in our society does not. We were never even close in danger of starving or defaulting on our loan.

My financial situation has changed over the years as I have become a business owner but I hope many of the lifestyle habits we developed back in those days when they were a financial necessity never go away. I still drive old cars. My Honda sedan is 26 years old, our family van is 17, our minivan (a theft recovery covered by scratches and dents) is 7, and our RV is 21.

I know I am wealthy. Thus my responsibility is to be generous to my employees, customers, vendors, church, and community. I know what my job is. I have no idea whether I'm doing well at it or not. I feel like I am sharing this personal information in self-defense, but I hope it also inspires somebody in some way even if it is not relatable to the poverty and struggle they may be experiencing.