Russ Douthat on Critical Race Theory

[Ken]

I suspect that vandalism, intimidation, and arson are violent when they are done by right wing extremists or people wearing pointy white hats and sheets. Especially since we know that for them, even silence is violence. The disconnect and double standards are what is mind blowing.

As far as I know, the law makes no distinction with respect to ideology. Do you have evidence that state or Federal authorities anywhere are operating under such a double standard? I suspect not.

Well yeah, the capital protests vs BLM protests, specifically in Seattle.

So you say...but is that actually true? Here is an article from last fall about Seattle protest arrests and prosecutions:

https://www.king5.com/article/news/inve ... 45941bc039

A KING 5 Investigators analysis of nearly 100 arrest records related to the Seattle protests shows that Jacob Little fits the typical profile of the people accused of veering into criminal activity.

The suspects are mostly white men who came into Seattle from communities outside the city to commit their crimes.

Of 95 cases obtained from public records requests and through court filings, KING 5 found:

48% of suspects are white
18% of suspects are black
28% of cases race was undetermined or not listed
32% of suspects listed Seattle as hometown

Kelly Jackson is another young, white suburbanite who has been charged by federal prosecutors with tossing Molotov cocktails into Seattle police vehicles in late May.

Jackson, who was fired from his job as a plumber’s assistant after his arrest, lives in Edmonds.

Court records show the 20-year-old was awaiting trial on three burglary cases in Snohomish county court when Seattle police and FBI investigators caught up with him.

Since 2018, county prosecutors have accused Jackson of breaking into an Edmonds ferry toll booth, a marijuana shop just outside the city, and a Stanwood animal rescue facility where he’s accused of walking off with a nearly 100-pound Rottweiler in the middle of the night.

“I wish I knew. We don’t know,” said Noah Center Executive Director Stacie Ventura, when asked about Jackson’s alleged motive for the canine heist.

In federal charging documents, local police recounted their many run-ins with Jackson and described him as “anti-law enforcement.”

Jackson pleaded “not guilty” to the charges he’s facing. His father declined to speak to KING 5 when reached at the Edmonds home where Jackson lives with his parents.

“He definitely doesn’t seem to have an issue vandalizing and breaking into businesses and destroying other people’s property,” Ventura said.

A white, Kirkland teen is charged is one of the most disturbing social media videos of the protests.

Jacob Greenburg, 19, is accused of smashing a metal baseball bat into the head of Seattle police officer Jose Jimenez on Capitol Hill on September 23. Investigators say the officer’s bike helmet likely saved his life.

Greenburg is the stepson of former Kirkland State Representative Laura Ruderman, who did not respond to a message seeking comment. Greenburg’s attorney said in court that his client is the victim of mistaken identity.

When they charged Greenburg a month after the assault, court documents revealed text messages in which Greenburg and a friend allegedly conspired to set fires around SPD’s east precinct and glorified the assault on Jimenez.

“Wish he didn’t have a helmet on lol,” Greenburg texted his friend, Danielle McMillan, according to charging documents.

McMillan, a 29-year-old real estate agent from Woodinville, is also charged with arson as a co-defendant.

Because responses to public records requests have been slowed by the pandemic, KING 5’s compilation of arrest data is far from complete.

For instance, the numbers do not include most of the 261 people that the Seattle City Attorney’s Office estimates have been arrested for suspected misdemeanor charges, such as obstruction and failure to disperse.

And just yesterday the New York Times published a long-form article about how the FBI used electronic surveillance and conducted an international manhunt to track town and arrest in Mexico two arson suspects from MN BLM protests: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/01/tech ... ition.html

Federal authorities assert that Mr. Felan also helped set fires at a school across the street and at a gas station, which were among over 1,500 buildings damaged that week. The surveillance footage from that day set off a nearly yearlong, international manhunt for the couple, involving multiple federal agencies and Mexican police. The pursuit also involved a facial recognition system made by a Chinese company that has been blacklisted by the U.S. government.

Ms. Yousif gave birth while on the run, and was separated from her baby for four months by the authorities. To prosecutors, the pursuit of Mr. Felan, who was charged with arson, and Ms. Yousif, who was charged with helping him flee, was a routine response to a case of property destruction. To fellow protesters, it’s part of an extreme crackdown on those who most fervently demonstrated against America’s criminal justice system.

But beyond the prosecutorial aftermath of the racial justice protests, the eight-month saga of a young Minnesota couple exposed an emerging global surveillance system that might one day find anyone, anywhere, the technology traveling easily over borders while civil liberties struggle to keep pace.

Seems to me that state and Federal authorities are acting pretty aggressively against BLM protest suspects who committed actual crimes like felony arson and assault. What evidence do you have that this is not true?

[nett]

As far as I know, the law makes no distinction with respect to ideology. Do you have evidence that state or Federal authorities anywhere are operating under such a double standard? I suspect not.

Well yeah, the capital protests vs BLM protests, specifically in Seattle.

So you say...but is that actually true? Here is an article from last fall about Seattle protest arrests and prosecutions:

https://www.king5.com/article/news/inve ... 45941bc039

A KING 5 Investigators analysis of nearly 100 arrest records related to the Seattle protests shows that Jacob Little fits the typical profile of the people accused of veering into criminal activity.

The suspects are mostly white men who came into Seattle from communities outside the city to commit their crimes.

Of 95 cases obtained from public records requests and through court filings, KING 5 found:

48% of suspects are white
18% of suspects are black
28% of cases race was undetermined or not listed
32% of suspects listed Seattle as hometown

Kelly Jackson is another young, white suburbanite who has been charged by federal prosecutors with tossing Molotov cocktails into Seattle police vehicles in late May.

Jackson, who was fired from his job as a plumber’s assistant after his arrest, lives in Edmonds.

Court records show the 20-year-old was awaiting trial on three burglary cases in Snohomish county court when Seattle police and FBI investigators caught up with him.

Since 2018, county prosecutors have accused Jackson of breaking into an Edmonds ferry toll booth, a marijuana shop just outside the city, and a Stanwood animal rescue facility where he’s accused of walking off with a nearly 100-pound Rottweiler in the middle of the night.

“I wish I knew. We don’t know,” said Noah Center Executive Director Stacie Ventura, when asked about Jackson’s alleged motive for the canine heist.

In federal charging documents, local police recounted their many run-ins with Jackson and described him as “anti-law enforcement.”

Jackson pleaded “not guilty” to the charges he’s facing. His father declined to speak to KING 5 when reached at the Edmonds home where Jackson lives with his parents.

“He definitely doesn’t seem to have an issue vandalizing and breaking into businesses and destroying other people’s property,” Ventura said.

A white, Kirkland teen is charged is one of the most disturbing social media videos of the protests.

Jacob Greenburg, 19, is accused of smashing a metal baseball bat into the head of Seattle police officer Jose Jimenez on Capitol Hill on September 23. Investigators say the officer’s bike helmet likely saved his life.

Greenburg is the stepson of former Kirkland State Representative Laura Ruderman, who did not respond to a message seeking comment. Greenburg’s attorney said in court that his client is the victim of mistaken identity.

When they charged Greenburg a month after the assault, court documents revealed text messages in which Greenburg and a friend allegedly conspired to set fires around SPD’s east precinct and glorified the assault on Jimenez.

“Wish he didn’t have a helmet on lol,” Greenburg texted his friend, Danielle McMillan, according to charging documents.

McMillan, a 29-year-old real estate agent from Woodinville, is also charged with arson as a co-defendant.

Because responses to public records requests have been slowed by the pandemic, KING 5’s compilation of arrest data is far from complete.

For instance, the numbers do not include most of the 261 people that the Seattle City Attorney’s Office estimates have been arrested for suspected misdemeanor charges, such as obstruction and failure to disperse.

And just yesterday the New York Times published a long-form article about how the FBI used electronic surveillance and conducted an international manhunt to track town and arrest in Mexico two arson suspects from MN BLM protests: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/01/tech ... ition.html

Federal authorities assert that Mr. Felan also helped set fires at a school across the street and at a gas station, which were among over 1,500 buildings damaged that week. The surveillance footage from that day set off a nearly yearlong, international manhunt for the couple, involving multiple federal agencies and Mexican police. The pursuit also involved a facial recognition system made by a Chinese company that has been blacklisted by the U.S. government.

Ms. Yousif gave birth while on the run, and was separated from her baby for four months by the authorities. To prosecutors, the pursuit of Mr. Felan, who was charged with arson, and Ms. Yousif, who was charged with helping him flee, was a routine response to a case of property destruction. To fellow protesters, it’s part of an extreme crackdown on those who most fervently demonstrated against America’s criminal justice system.

But beyond the prosecutorial aftermath of the racial justice protests, the eight-month saga of a young Minnesota couple exposed an emerging global surveillance system that might one day find anyone, anywhere, the technology traveling easily over borders while civil liberties struggle to keep pace.

Seems to me that state and Federal authorities are acting pretty aggressively against BLM protest suspects who committed actual crimes like felony arson and assault. What evidence do you have that this is not true?

A few anecdotes about arrests when there were entire city blocks in most large cities boarded up due to rioting? You honestly think the same attention went to prosecuting those crimes as has gone to finding and exposing EVERY single person (other than the FBI plants) who was at the capital protests

[Josh]

The people involved in 1/6 have been held without bail since then in a very harsh prison.

Sorry, Ken, but blm protesters and rioters weren’t rounded up and put in a prison without bail. The 1/6 protesters are still in there.

Meanwhile, another capitol police officer “commits suicide”.

[Ken]

A few anecdotes about arrests when there were entire city blocks in most large cities boarded up due to rioting? You honestly think the same attention went to prosecuting those crimes as has gone to finding and exposing EVERY single person (other than the FBI plants) who was at the capital protests

I don't know and apparently you don't either. But you have presented ZERO evidence that BLM protestors have been treated more leniently than 1/6 insurrectionists for committing the SAME crimes. Asserting it doesn't make it so.

In any event, criminal activity at BLM protests was mostly violations of state and local laws and prosecuted by state and local prosecutors. Whereas the Capitol insurrection was on Federal property and against Federal officers so is being investigated and prosecuted by Federal authorities and not local DC police and prosecutors. So it's not really an apples to apples comparison. It does not surprise me that the FBI and Federal prosecutors are less involved in investigating and prosecuting BLM protest related crimes because they were mostly not Federal crimes.

[nett]

A few anecdotes about arrests when there were entire city blocks in most large cities boarded up due to rioting? You honestly think the same attention went to prosecuting those crimes as has gone to finding and exposing EVERY single person (other than the FBI plants) who was at the capital protests

I don't know and apparently you don't either. But you have presented ZERO evidence that BLM protestors have been treated more leniently than 1/6 insurrectionists for committing the SAME crimes. Asserting it doesn't make it so.

In any event, criminal activity at BLM protests was mostly violations of state and local laws and prosecuted by state and local prosecutors. Whereas the Capitol insurrection was on Federal property and against Federal officers so is being investigated and prosecuted by Federal authorities and not local DC police and prosecutors. So it's not really an apples to apples comparison. It does not surprise me that the FBI and Federal prosecutors are less involved in investigating and prosecuting BLM protest related crimes because they were mostly not Federal crimes.

Pretty sure declaring sovereign autonomous zones is a crime in the USA. Also what exactly were the crimes at the capital? How much damage was there? How much loss of life compared to the BLM protests?

I think comparing shutting down entire cities due to violent crime with some trespassing at the capital is ridiculous.

[Ken]

The people involved in 1/6 have been held without bail since then in a very harsh prison.

Sorry, Ken, but blm protesters and rioters weren’t rounded up and put in a prison without bail. The 1/6 protesters are still in there.

Meanwhile, another capitol police officer “commits suicide”.

How many 30,000 or so people who were at the 1/6 protests have been arrested and held without bail? And how does that compare to how Federal defendants have been treated in other cases? These are knowable facts. And guess what? Your assertions are wrong:

At least 53 defendants are currently detained — about 13 percent of the total who have been charged in federal court and nearly one-quarter of the 230 who face felony charges.

The percentage of Jan. 6 defendants jailed pretrial is far lower than the nearly 75 percent of federal defendants nationwide. Many of the former are not accused of violence, have no criminal history and have stable family and community ties and pose less risk of public danger or flight, the criteria judges use for requiring detention.

Judges have also been less willing to detain defendants pretrial because the pandemic has backlogged jury trials and the massive scale of the Jan. 6 investigation is requiring more time to decide individual cases, raising concerns that defendants could wait longer for trial in jail than any sentence they might face if convicted.

Those detained face charges that generally fall into at least one of three categories — violent offenses such as assaulting police, weapons violations or wider conspiracies in which defendants are alleged to have engaged in planning or preparations for unlawful actions.

For example, about half of Jan. 6 defendants charged with assaulting police remain held, about 30 of 75.

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/i ... stigation/

[Bootstrap]

I really can’t believe you’re standing here telling me that violent crime is OK.

Ken is not saying that. I am not saying that. As far as I can tell, Nikole Hannah-Jones did not say that. If I am wrong, could you please provide a quote where she does say that?

A request: please don't use quotation marks for things that people did not actually say. Example: Josh says "pickles swim in the desert". If someone actually said something, please provide the quote.

[Bootstrap]

A request for everyone: Can we please stop playing "violence on my side doesn't count but violence on your side is terrible"?

Can we also please stop playing "someone on the (left or right) did something extreme, so everyone on the (left or right) is guilty of that? Everyone is responsible for what they themselves say. This thread is about CRT, not about violence on the left or the right. If someone can provide quotes in which Nikole Hannah-Jones or Ibram Kendi promote violence, please feel free to do so. Is that something Douthat claimed they do?

[nett]

The people involved in 1/6 have been held without bail since then in a very harsh prison.

Sorry, Ken, but blm protesters and rioters weren’t rounded up and put in a prison without bail. The 1/6 protesters are still in there.

Meanwhile, another capitol police officer “commits suicide”.

How many 30,000 or so people who were at the 1/6 protests have been arrested and held without bail? And how does that compare to how Federal defendants have been treated in other cases? These are knowable facts. And guess what? Your assertions are wrong:

At least 53 defendants are currently detained — about 13 percent of the total who have been charged in federal court and nearly one-quarter of the 230 who face felony charges.

The percentage of Jan. 6 defendants jailed pretrial is far lower than the nearly 75 percent of federal defendants nationwide. Many of the former are not accused of violence, have no criminal history and have stable family and community ties and pose less risk of public danger or flight, the criteria judges use for requiring detention.

Judges have also been less willing to detain defendants pretrial because the pandemic has backlogged jury trials and the massive scale of the Jan. 6 investigation is requiring more time to decide individual cases, raising concerns that defendants could wait longer for trial in jail than any sentence they might face if convicted.

Those detained face charges that generally fall into at least one of three categories — violent offenses such as assaulting police, weapons violations or wider conspiracies in which defendants are alleged to have engaged in planning or preparations for unlawful actions.

For example, about half of Jan. 6 defendants charged with assaulting police remain held, about 30 of 75.

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/i ... stigation/

What? you didn't address Josh's assertions.

Ken, do you just google and paste the first thing that comes in defense of your position? I'm noticing that you tend to write very little of your own opinion, and just paste whatever you can find, and then claim the facts back you up.

If so, you should know, I (and I suspect others) are far more interested in personal, thought out responses, than what Jeff Bezo's propaganda machine generates.

If your opinions are solely based on what you read in the Wapo, or some other useless, bought and paid for organization, then maybe you should reconsider them.

[Josh]

A request for everyone: Can we please stop playing "violence on my side doesn't count but violence on your side is terrible"?

Can we also please stop playing "someone on the (left or right) did something extreme, so everyone on the (left or right) is guilty of that? Everyone is responsible for what they themselves say.

Who’s picking sides here? I’m not on the left or the right side. You keep claiming that one side is “my side”. Are you claiming a particular side for “your side”?

I am, however, pointing out that Nikole Hannah-Jones promotes violence in the form of smashing windows and burning down buildings. If we were talking about a right wing figure who also advocated such violence, I’d point that out, too.

When someone calls for violent “protests” to get their way, I have to back away from everything else they think, as an Anabaptist. I tried to share left wing but nonetheless nonviolent resources from Mennonite Church USA about dealing with police violence, but that thread has gone dead - nobody wants to talk about that. Instead, we are quoting someone who is a worldly philosopher, dedicated to worldly, violent ends. That’s sad.