Minimum wage: how much is too much?

[steve-in-kville]

Your assumption that immigrants who drive trucks are unskilled and unsafe drivers seems a little unfair. Likewise, the assumption that hard-working immigrants who drive trucks for $65,000 a year force people to be homeless in LA.

SWIFT:

Stevie Wonder's institute for Trucking

[Josh]

The end result of lots of third-world workers and third-world wages is third-world safety, third-world overcrowding, and third-world disease. It begs the question of why, exactly, the third-world needs imported to America...

... except that in the third-world, certain people are rich. Really rich. You can make a lot of money if you can figure out how to underpay people, ignore safety, and overcrowd them. And that's exactly what's going on in America right now.

[mike]

I really question the narrative that food, clothing, and consumer goods become "unaffordable" without high levels of undocumented, illegal immigration (which some people claim are refugees).

Feel free to pose the question to someone who is making that claim.

Is the purpose of importing lots and lots of very unskilled refugees to help the refugees, or is it for economic reasons?

Feel free to pose the question to someone who makes immigration policy.

Where are unskilled labourers supposed to live when the cost of land is skyrocketing? This isn't a problem of "not enough houses". Land itself has gotten a lot more expensive.

The same places people have always lived - homes or apartments that are within their means to buy or rent. These have always been the choices: rent or buy where you are, or move where you like it better or can afford it more easily. I realize this is not as simple as it sounds, but it has always been this way. Migration, both mass and individual, is a part of human history. People are always moving around.

It also leaves unskilled labourers who are already here (which includes previous immigrants) out in the dust. They need jobs too and they're already having a hard time getting by.

The job market is great for most if not all laborers now. You can get thousands of dollars as a sign-on bonus for fast food restaurants right now, for crying out loud. There no reason a decent worker cannot find a job right now. If you think the biggest problem with labor right now is that people can't find work, I don't know what to tell you.

What's your explanation for the sharp increase in trucking accidents (up about 40% over the last two decades)? The trucking industry has transitioned to one of exploitation that gets by on as little training as possible. The emphasis on safety that a business like UPS had is gone, and the new business model is Amazon and Swift. It's all about working drivers as hard as possible for as long as possible.

I have no explanation; I was challenging your assumption that an increase in accidents is driven by unskilled immigrant truck drivers. It may be just as likely that the native-born Americans that are driving trucks these days are just worse at it than their dads. Rules for truck drivers are stricter than they've ever been, so it doesn't seem to be regulation that's the problem. What about all the electronics drivers can be distracted by these days? Or the fact that many drivers are constantly running long national runs and often lack familiarity with local roads or awareness of immediate or local weather conditions? There are likely many factors.

LA prices are quickly coming for the rest of the country. The era when a working class person could buy a house is over. It's great for all the people who managed to buy into housing wealth in the past; that's not the reality people live in today. I really do not understand the enthusiasm some people have for this road to rent and debt serfdom.

I disagree. Housing prices rise and fall, and although they are currently on the rise generally, that can change again. Also, there is always housing for sale or rent. It may not be what a person would want, but it's there. All of this depends on the local market of course. In many cities, houses can be bought or rented in distressed (or even not distressed) areas for very reasonable prices. For example, I have heard of the way it is in Lancaster County Pennsylvania, where real estate is insane in rural areas. Many young people starting out used to buy or rent a trailer on a bit of land, but even that's ridiculously expensive. So instead, I hear some people are buying $30K-$50K rowhouses in the city for instance, and commuting out to the rural areas to their jobs. Small houses in the cities are the new affordable starter homes these days apparently. Times change.

You can buy as-is homes in my rural area for under $100K that need work but are livable. You can buy them and repair as you have time and money. In a minor city near me, you can buy a two-story house on a lot any day of the week for $75K. The cost of that mortgage on a 15-year fixed is under $600/month. With taxes, utilities, and insurance, maybe it's $1,000 a month.

However, no, it's not a ranch house on five acres with a pond. We don't all get to live on dream properties. I know I don't. What's wrong with lowering one's expectations to fit one's budget?

In my opinion we are largely dealing with first-world problems. We have no idea how good we Americans have it compared to much of the world. As Americans we believe the world owes us everything. Even Covid has really not caused horrendous economic damage. Food pantries are flooded with food. Nobody needs to go hungry. Nobody needs to be jobless if they have basic work skills and a reasonably good work ethic. And yet we hear nothing but complaining it seems.

[mike]

The end result of lots of third-world workers and third-world wages is third-world safety, third-world overcrowding, and third-world disease. It begs the question of why, exactly, the third-world needs imported to America...

... except that in the third-world, certain people are rich. Really rich. You can make a lot of money if you can figure out how to underpay people, ignore safety, and overcrowd them. And that's exactly what's going on in America right now.

So people are lining up in droves to enter the country because they know they will be underpaid, overworked, and be in constant danger of their lives?

I doubt that.

[Josh]

The end result of lots of third-world workers and third-world wages is third-world safety, third-world overcrowding, and third-world disease. It begs the question of why, exactly, the third-world needs imported to America...

... except that in the third-world, certain people are rich. Really rich. You can make a lot of money if you can figure out how to underpay people, ignore safety, and overcrowd them. And that's exactly what's going on in America right now.

So people are lining up in droves to enter the country because they know they will be underpaid, overworked, and be in constant danger of their lives?

I doubt that.

They don’t know that until they get here and it’s too late, and they’re deeply in debt to a people smuggler who got them across the border in the first place.

[mike]

They don’t know that until they get here and it’s too late, and they’re deeply in debt to a people smuggler who got them across the border in the first place.

Interesting. I'm surprised that the coyotes operate on credit; I would have figured they work on a cash basis. Learn something every day.

[steve-in-kville]

They don’t know that until they get here and it’s too late, and they’re deeply in debt to a people smuggler who got them across the border in the first place.

Interesting. I'm surprised that the coyotes operate on credit; I would have figured they work on a cash basis. Learn something every day.

I'd imagine they're kept on short leash until its paid up.

[Soloist]

In my opinion we are largely dealing with first-world problems. We have no idea how good we Americans have it compared to much of the world. As Americans we believe the world owes us everything. Even Covid has really not caused horrendous economic damage. Food pantries are flooded with food. Nobody needs to go hungry. Nobody needs to be jobless if they have basic work skills and a reasonably good work ethic. And yet we hear nothing but complaining it seems.

Okay lets make some specific applications to a conservative Mennonite here. Where would a husband with three children and a wife get a job if their specific job market dried up?
Lets make it more specific, this guy is me.

Specific points:
1: Church doesn't want welfare, and they also want you self supportive
2: Church will pay big medical bills but isn't meant to pay routine little bills
3: I have a house with affordable rent, if I had to move for work I would double my cost for a 3 bedroom house which would be required by almost all rental agencies. (cheapest I saw was 1470$, that was local though)
4: I can't work where I would sell alcohol, tobacco or contribute to the drug/alcohol industry.
5: Because rarely is the person looking this perfectly fit 21 year old (they generally find work) I have physical limitations limiting the use of my shoulders.

This last point effectively eliminates bagging seed (also a horrible long term option with little upward mobility), construction (a great job for paying the bills, especially if you can end up with a contractor license and start your own business).
Now throw in the current political situation for a Conservative Mennonite. Do you gender affirm? Do you like listening to the radio all day? Dirty perverted talking in the breakroom?
Job options for us would involve working for a Mennonite otherwise we would potentially end in trouble. Vaccine? an additional issue now which is partly the driving reason for looking for new work.

Now among the Mennonites would generally get their work handed to them on a silver platter you can still find people who really struggle to find work. I can think of one who has pretty severe limitations and had to stop driving truck, he's effectively jobless after a few years of looking. I get accused of being too picky or not wanting to work what seems like reasonable jobs but Conservatives who work for other Conservatives or are self employed have no idea what the job market actually looks like.

My caregivers start at 11.25$ an hour and that will be going up to 12.75 the new minimum wage. Assistant program coordinator is the next step up, a 50 cent raise. Program coordinator can make 15-20 depending on experience so... they generally start at 15.
3% raises per a year eventually after years of working give you a decent wage and can be livable. Shifts often change from week to week and most of them are in the area of 28-36 hours a week. If you knew how much my shifts change in a single month from week to week you would be horrified.
I also make considerably more then them as I hold a license and have been college educated.
I'm not throwing this out there because I want someone to take pity on me and offer a job, I'm trying to make a point that the economic situation on the middle bottom isn't that rosy as people seem to think. I actually have several options thanks to my experience in the Military for retraining into a new career.
I'm not really interested in driving truck, that's how my son was killed...

[Ken]

Josh on the slavery thread: "People should stop blaming others for their own misfortunes and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps"

It's a really good idea to stop blaming other people for you and your family's faults. Some people seem trapped in a prison where everything bad that happens to their family, is somehow external to them, and somebody else's fault. This basically deprives people of their own agency. It turns out that absolutely every grouping of people you can imagine has had something unjust happen to them sometime. No individual alive today is truly "advantaged" over everyone else.

Josh on the minimum wage thread: "Third-world immigrants are bringing disease and taking our jobs. And it is the fault of capitalists that we are underpaid and have unsafe working conditions"

The end result of lots of third-world workers and third-world wages is third-world safety, third-world overcrowding, and third-world disease. It begs the question of why, exactly, the third-world needs imported to America...

... except that in the third-world, certain people are rich. Really rich. You can make a lot of money if you can figure out how to underpay people, ignore safety, and overcrowd them. And that's exactly what's going on in America right now.

OK....

[Josh]

Josh on the slavery thread: "People should stop blaming others for their own misfortunes and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps"

It's a really good idea to stop blaming other people for you and your family's faults. Some people seem trapped in a prison where everything bad that happens to their family, is somehow external to them, and somebody else's fault. This basically deprives people of their own agency. It turns out that absolutely every grouping of people you can imagine has had something unjust happen to them sometime. No individual alive today is truly "advantaged" over everyone else.

Josh on the minimum wage thread: "Third-world immigrants are bringing disease and taking our jobs. And it is the fault of capitalists that we are underpaid and have unsafe working conditions"

The end result of lots of third-world workers and third-world wages is third-world safety, third-world overcrowding, and third-world disease. It begs the question of why, exactly, the third-world needs imported to America...

... except that in the third-world, certain people are rich. Really rich. You can make a lot of money if you can figure out how to underpay people, ignore safety, and overcrowd them. And that's exactly what's going on in America right now.

OK....

From a PERSONAL perspective, yes, people should quit blaming the past. 19th century economic conditions and injustices are irrelevant.

From a group perspective, present day economic conditions are very relevant. I don’t understand why it’s a good idea to try to recreate third world conditions in America.