400 Years of African Slavery in America

A place to discuss history and historical events.
Josh

Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:06 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:01 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:41 pm

So have rape, sexual abuse, murder, and genocide.

I wish people would not minimize what slaves went through in America. I wish people would not make excuses for slaveholders. Slaveholders knew that they were taking advantage of other people by force. They knew they were dehumanizing helpless people.

That's an important part of American history.

That's why Exodus has always been such an important church in the Black preaching tradition in America.
Some of us consider it more important to focus on present day atrocities than historical events 150+ years ago.
What about historical events from 2000+ years ago. Are those relevant?
Well, Israel doesn’t blame its problems on Egypt engaging in “systemic racism” because of slavery in the past. So no.

It’s time to move on from the misdeeds of the past involving people who are all dead now.
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Josh

Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Josh »

Only an Anz wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:50 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:16 pm
barnhart wrote: There was also an active African slave system when the Europeans showed up and decided to start buying some for themselves. However I think it is meaningful to look at American slavery specifically since this is the one place we can work to repair the past. This is on us, not all the other slave systems that predated it. I think there is a sort of Neo-Confederate history that likes to think of slavery as a random condition that falls on to humans from time to time and is nobodies fault, like the common cold, thus acknowledging the damage or working to repair it is meaningless.
The history of slavery is mostly people being sold into debt bondage or as war spoils (including the trans-Atlantic slave grade).

American slavery was unique in being chattels slavery, but was a mere blip in the context of human history.

We would do well more to focus on present day debt bondage and problems with spoils of war and other forced labour than spend too much time ruminating on the past, particularly when much of our country is descended from people who migrated here in the 20th century. American slavey truly is a footnote, and was also eradicated - unlike much of the rest of the world.
"American slavey [sic] truly is a footnote"

....not for all of us. Yours truly is descended from Quakers on one side and slaveowners on the other. I've in fact met a woman who is my relative BECAUSE OF slavery and accompanying r*ape. Please do not speak for all of us...for some, it is something that still weighs on them often.
Exactly how relevant is what our ancestors did, who are all dead, to us today?

Slavery was still practiced in the Ottoman Empire until the the 1910s. Yet do we constantly hear sour Hutterites, Armenians, Greeks, and Cypriots needing to put their history of being enslaved front and centre?
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Ken
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Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:10 pm
Only an Anz wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:50 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:16 pm

The history of slavery is mostly people being sold into debt bondage or as war spoils (including the trans-Atlantic slave grade).

American slavery was unique in being chattels slavery, but was a mere blip in the context of human history.

We would do well more to focus on present day debt bondage and problems with spoils of war and other forced labour than spend too much time ruminating on the past, particularly when much of our country is descended from people who migrated here in the 20th century. American slavey truly is a footnote, and was also eradicated - unlike much of the rest of the world.
"American slavey [sic] truly is a footnote"

....not for all of us. Yours truly is descended from Quakers on one side and slaveowners on the other. I've in fact met a woman who is my relative BECAUSE OF slavery and accompanying r*ape. Please do not speak for all of us...for some, it is something that still weighs on them often.
Exactly how relevant is what our ancestors did, who are all dead, to us today?

Slavery was still practiced in the Ottoman Empire until the the 1910s. Yet do we constantly hear sour Hutterites, Armenians, Greeks, and Cypriots needing to put their history of being enslaved front and centre?
Well actually yes. We have had near constant wars across the former Ottoman Empire for the past 100 years due largely to historic slights and atrocities. So I expect history is pretty important to understanding that part of the world.

What is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict over if not history and competing historical claims to the same patch of land?
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Szdfan

Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Szdfan »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:10 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:10 pm
Only an Anz wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:50 pm

"American slavey [sic] truly is a footnote"

....not for all of us. Yours truly is descended from Quakers on one side and slaveowners on the other. I've in fact met a woman who is my relative BECAUSE OF slavery and accompanying r*ape. Please do not speak for all of us...for some, it is something that still weighs on them often.
Exactly how relevant is what our ancestors did, who are all dead, to us today?

Slavery was still practiced in the Ottoman Empire until the the 1910s. Yet do we constantly hear sour Hutterites, Armenians, Greeks, and Cypriots needing to put their history of being enslaved front and centre?
Well actually yes. We have had near constant wars across the former Ottoman Empire for the past 100 years due largely to historic slights and atrocities. So I expect history is pretty important to understanding that part of the world.

What is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict over if not history and competing historical claims to the same patch of land?
International recognition of the 1915 Armenien genocide by the Ottomans has been a politically sensitive issue for the past 100 years. In April, Biden was the first US President to issue a statement recognizing it.
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Ken
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Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:08 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:06 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:01 pm

Some of us consider it more important to focus on present day atrocities than historical events 150+ years ago.
What about historical events from 2000+ years ago. Are those relevant?
Well, Israel doesn’t blame its problems on Egypt engaging in “systemic racism” because of slavery in the past. So no.

It’s time to move on from the misdeeds of the past involving people who are all dead now.
Israel's current claim over the West Bank dates in part back to 539 BC when Cyrus the Great conquered Babylon and allowed the Jews to return to Judea and Samara. Or if you want to go back far enough, all the way back to the Exodus and Canaanite Conquest.

So yes, I think Israel pays attention to ancient history. Why do you think they call that area "Judea and Samara?"
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Josh »

It’s time of move past being bitter about deeds done in the past by people who are dead now.
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Szdfan

Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Szdfan »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:43 pm It’s time of move past being bitter about deeds done in the past by people who are dead now.
Problem solved because Josh said so!!! Thank you Josh!!
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Josh

Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Josh »

Szdfan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:51 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:43 pm It’s time of move past being bitter about deeds done in the past by people who are dead now.
Problem solved because Josh said so!!! Thank you Josh!!
Well, what’s better? Complaining about what happened in 1619? Is this what the Bible says to do?

I see nowhere in the Bible that it says a fruit of the spirit is to dredge up grievances for how someone may have been offended or hurt in the past... hundreds of years ago... who is now dead.

If you can point me to modern day Christians who are slaveholders, I’d very strongly agree they should repent and set their slaves free.
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Ken
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Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:32 am
Szdfan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:51 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:43 pm It’s time of move past being bitter about deeds done in the past by people who are dead now.
Problem solved because Josh said so!!! Thank you Josh!!
Well, what’s better? Complaining about what happened in 1619? Is this what the Bible says to do?

I see nowhere in the Bible that it says a fruit of the spirit is to dredge up grievances for how someone may have been offended or hurt in the past... hundreds of years ago... who is now dead.

If you can point me to modern day Christians who are slaveholders, I’d very strongly agree they should repent and set their slaves free.
History isn't about "complaining" It is about understanding that we are where we are today due to events and actions that happened in the past.

My own extended family has a farm in Pennsylvania that was bought by my great great great grandfather around the time of the Civil War. On land captured from the Shawnee Indians a century earlier. Should we tear up that property deed that is "ancient history" because it was entered into by people who are long dead? And 'repurpose' the land to whatever higher good the current government might think it should be put to? What "right" does my family have to that land that was acquired through deals and agreements almost two centuries ago that were entered into by people long dead?

At the same time that my family was acquiring their family farm in PA through land contract, the Paiute Indians here in the Pacific were Northwest were granted title to the large Malheur Reservation in Central Oregon as their homeland in 1872. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malheur_I ... eservation By 1879 incursions by white settlers onto Paiute lands triggered the Bannock War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bannock_War which resulted in all the Paiutes of Central Oregon being rounded up and transported hundreds of miles north to be detained in concentration camps on the Yakima Indian Reservation in Central Washington. By the way, this is the same exact land at what is now the Malheur Refuge that right-wing protesters led by the Bundy's tried to occupy and claim a few years back.

Should we return this portion of former Indian lands to the Paiute? The tribe still exists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Paiute_people and their title to the land is no older than my own family's title to our land in PA, and arguably a stronger claim because it was entered into by the US government by treaty rather than Mifflin County PA. Under the US Constitution, treaties are the highest law of the land.

Why do we treat as sacrosanct 160-year old contracts and titles that were entered into by white citizens, but discard equivalently old contracts, titles, and treaties that were entered into by non-white people? That isn't just a question of old history. It is a question for the present day.

History is messy. And the inequities in our own present day society were often cast into place by past generations. But of course it is a free country and if this is the approach that YOU want to take to understanding our past, that is certainly your choice. You are in good company.

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Last edited by Ken on Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Neto

Re: 400 Years of African Slavery in America

Post by Neto »

This article showed up on the news feed on the BBC this morning.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/ideas/videos/trac ... s/p09nyk44

The woman being interviewed states that "What really shook me to the core was discovering that" her grandmother 5 generations removed was the first to be enslaved. Seven generations back. She goes on to say "and that she had a daughter, who also had a daughter" and that "they were all kept together by her enslaver".

I do not for a minute excuse slavery, or her enslaver. But often times slave owners are shown to be especially unkind and inconsiderate by breaking up families, mothers from their children, husbands from wives, etc. She says nothing about any male ancestors, perhaps because slaves were "breed like animals", and maybe there was no real affection between the "partners". But leaving this family intact - three generations - could be considered a small touch of kindness. (Again, no excuses for the slave owner, just a response in view of other accounts where this was not done.)

But back to the 7 generations. That's a great deal of time. She knows, in fact, a great deal more of her family's background than I do of my own. Oh, I have some names, and a few "family legends" about certain of my ancestors, but the one I'm thinking of especially only goes back 5 generations, to my Great Great Great Grandfather, who is said to have been found under a tree, as an abandoned infant. Although he was "adopted" by a Mennonite family, and raised as one of their own (as far as the story goes) he was, the story goes, given the name of the species of tree under which he was found as his surname. (Incidentally, as a side story, it is through his daughter that I am half 3rd cousin to "John Denver", me through her first marriage, and he through her second, thus the "half".) But there is no "documentation" that proves this story of his origin. So it is interesting to me that this woman basically can only know the facts of her ancestry specifically because her ancestor was enslaved.

Please forgive me for another reference to the Banawa. I just can't help myself.... When we first arrived in the Banawa village, they did not know that they were known by that name. They just referred to themselves as a phrase that means "Us", or, to be more specific, by a phrase meaning "The People who Inhabit the Banks of Stone Creek" (Yati Fa-ka Me). But this location was at the mouth of this creek, Yati Fa, where it entered a somewhat larger creek, called Kitia ("Fast Running"). And so as the village grew, and some built houses a bit farther away from the Yati Fa, they were technically Kitia-ka Me, two different names for parts of the same village. Long side story to say that I set out to find a common ancestor, to refer to them by that name, instead of using one that they didn't even know about. I was very surprised to find that in spite of being a tribe of only 59 people, they did not have a common ancestor, as far as anyone could recount. But there was one older man who knew a lot of genealogy, and I wrote down everything he could tell me. I consulted with him multiple times, and he would sometimes seem to contradict himself, even in the same sitting. This is somewhat excusable, as 1.) this was not his own family background he was recounting, bu that of every person he could recall by name in the tribe's history, and 2.) by the fact that the kinship system in the Banawa regards one's father's brother as also a "father", and likewise a mother's sister as also a "mother". Thus also these parallel cousins are regarded as siblings. But my main point is that this is an oral culture. Nothing is preserved in any form other than the memory of the living members of the society. I doubt if there is any living member of the Banawa who knows all this information that I have written down in my notes. So, if anyone is still reading this (I know I went around the barn a few times to get to this point), why would she, or any of us, be "shaken to the core" by facts about things that happened to ancestors, when if these things had not happened to these ancestors, nothing at all would be known of them, absolutely nothing at all of what they lives were like. In my own history as a Dutch Mennonite, I can guess at things that my ancestors might have experienced, because there are stories in Martyrs' Mirror, but none of those people were my ancestors, as far as any living person can tell. Sure, someone will say that what happened to MY ancestors does not affect my life today. But it DOES. If not for the persecution of my people, "I" might be living in Holland. (It's all nonsense, because "I" would not exist, because this continued persecution is what brought my ancestors together, and ultimately what brought my parents together.) Maybe "MY" family back then were a wealthy merchants, and "I" have been "deprived" of all of this because of the actions of the Spanish Catholics who controlled the Dutch lands at that time. Maybe my life now would be different if the Black Pastor had not cheated my father out of the agreed price on a used car my dad rebuilt for resale. (My Dad forgave the debt, and made no effort to pressure him to "pay up". THIS is what I "inherited" from that experience - I learned what kind of man my father was, and was shown by this loss how a Christian person responds. That is the heritage I gained from his having been cheated. And we can gain the same kind of lessons from obscure stories about our ancestors.)
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