By Thy Words

[Wade]

I’m so glad the western Nationwiders are better. They would never slap a ban on a repentant, recently excommunicated soul who remembered one more “sin” he wanted to clear up. (He had gambled.) Except they did.

He had voluntarily fessed up at 2am one morning and knew he’d get excommunicated, but he didn’t care as he was free before God. Then a few days later he remembered the stop at the casino. So he fessed that up too. That earned him the ban. Because it proved his repentance wasn’t sincere. If you can’t understand how utterly devastating this would be to a sincere heart, please don’t even offer your opinion.

Although a member, I am no spokesperson for Nationwide. I am a seeker that is new to the church. Please understand I am not trying to paint the picture of perfection or being infallible in anyway.

I think my personal opinion is pretty well useless. It isn't what we are called to give - rather to give love and compassion. To be sensitive and kind - I am sorry I failed in this.

This year I had two friends who had been through a lot;, wives, families, churches, jobs, doctors, counsellors - all had given up on them... Both called me for help and I visited each of them often enough to know very intimate details about there lives. They didn't repent of their own sins but that doesn't mean when someone asked for help the love of Christ doesn't compel us. I would go and struggle to accomplish other things. Eventually both men killed themselves. I want for my opinion to agree with God in that they needed the love of Christ. If Christ loved us while we were still sinners I couldn't imagine not showing the repentant person in your story compassion - opinions are for those who know the whole story - I do not. Your story is important and I pray the Lords blessing in leading

[Signtist]

Dad was excommunicated for letting Mose Stoltzfus sleep at our house. I'm not even certain he knew the guy was there til the next morning.

[TruthSeeker]

Dad was excommunicated for letting Mose Stoltzfus sleep at our house. I'm not even certain he knew the guy was there til the next morning.

Are you comfortable explaining why letting Mose S sleep at your house, in the church leaders' minds, warranted your dad's ex-communication?

[Signtist]

They never could explain it, so I'm not entirely certain how I could. Many years later it was finally admitted to be "an over reaction."

[ragpicker]

That was a good response, and I'll reply accordingly. That "person" was me. This happened at Farmington, NM.

If you of your own conviction come forward and confess to sin, struggles to overcome etcetera and they apply an automatic excommunication...

I was miserable under the burden of sin. I called the preacher Dale Martin at 2 am one morning. He graciously invited me over and I confessed everything (or so I thought). As I prepared to leave, he gently reminded me that this would result in excommunication. I replied that I was aware of that but I didn't care. I just wanted to be right with God. (I mention Dale's name because he was kind and I will forever be grateful for his kindness that night.)

Makes perfect sense when you cover up sin and try to deceive someone about it.

I tend to agree. Seems this is what Scripture is saying.

Nationwide doesn't practice the ban,

Some did. I am not sure if they still do. They have not fundamentally changed as an organization, so who knows?

so what exactly are you referring to when you say he was excommunicated and then the slapped the ban on him after he confessed to one more thing?

I was excommunicated the following Sunday morning. On Tuesday I remembered the casino visit. It came as a jolt. I wrestled, because I knew how it would be interpreted (that's a red flag right there, y'all), but I decided I was going all the way, regardless if people believed me or not.

So I confessed this thing too. The next day, after prayer meeting I was summoned to the basement to the upper grade school room for a meeting with the ministry. There, I was informed of their disappointment. They told me they believed my sincerity at first, but that one does not simply forget such a major sin. They were glad I went through with confessing, but because of my lack of sincerity, they were placing me under the ban. That meant zero social interaction, zero meals with members except with the immediate family I lived with, etc. This was all clearly spelled out to me, and the words "ban" and "shunning" were used.

Sounds to me that he's better off finding another church if that is how his church handled his repentance.

I did. But it took a final, and third excommunication before I learned my lesson. That one was political in nature.

Mistakes do happen, but the wounds don't heal quickly at all.

Yes. It was devastating to me, and was a significant driver of the bitterness that for years consumed my heart. Some of the denizens of the old MD witnessed that bitterness and the repentance of it.

But I got the ultimate revenge. I forgave them and I love them. I literally go out of my way to connect with some of the people involved. I have no pain. I am grateful for the journey.

More...

I have testimony on tape of chilling corruption by a now deceased top dog bishop and R&S board member. I have visited for hours with this man. I have family who were in top leadership at R&S. I have experienced things and witnessed things that should never be named in the church of Christ. When you are an unbeliever and break into the preacher's house when he is out of town, and access the preacher's meeting notes and discover gross and clear corruption, by the same people who were constantly haranguing you to get your life right with God, it messes with you big time.

When you know the man who just encouraged you to get right with God is fooling around with his daughters, it messes with you.

When you access another famous preacher's files and discover a file filled with a weird obsession about sexual matters, and sexualized advertising, and it's the same guy, never mind, I don't wanna give a hint who it was, it messes with you.

When you surreptitiously record a meeting with the preachers and their sidekick, then in a subsequent meeting bring up points and are told to your face that this never happened, and this is verified by everyone in the room, then you whip out your microcassette recorder and play back proof they are lying, and the immediate response is to jump your case for recording them and are told "it says you don't trust us", that messes with you.

I could go on about gross corruption and sin for hours and hours. And that's only the things I have directly witnessed and experienced.

Some say, yes your church at Grandin was messed up. Yes, but so was Farmington, and Belen, and Seymour (different fellowship) and on and on. Be the troubled kid and you find out tons of stuff that goes on. Gross sexual misconduct was rampant across these churches, and not just among the young people and children.

Again, I got the ultimate revenge. I forgave them and I love them. I literally go out of my way to connect with some of the people involved. I consider some of them my friends. I have no pain. I am grateful for the journey.

I only speak up here because I mildly resent what feels like a whitewashing of a very corrupt system. Those systems are evil. The people, a few are evil, most by far are sincere servants of the Lord.

It just really bugs me to see some of the criticism of those who speak up, and the general whitewashing here.

I also know, there will most likely be attempts to discredit my experience and my stories. It is typical to dismiss me as just another bitter "ex".

Can we just all admit our sins and repent instead? Is that asking too much?

Again, for emphasis... the systems are evil. The people, some are evil, most by far are sincere servants of the Lord.

[Signtist]

When you surreptitiously record a meeting with the preachers and their sidekick, then in a subsequent meeting bring up points and are told to your face that this never happened, and this is verified by everyone in the room, then you whip out your microcassette recorder and play back proof they are lying, and the immediate response is to jump your case for recording them and are told "it says you don't trust us", that messes with you.

OH my goodness. That story took place in Ontario. Not meaning it didn't take place in Missouri, but it also took place in the church where I grew up. Like, verbatim. It was the only way to prove anything, but obviously wouldn't hold up in a court of law.

[ragpicker]

When you surreptitiously record a meeting with the preachers and their sidekick, then in a subsequent meeting bring up points and are told to your face that this never happened, and this is verified by everyone in the room, then you whip out your microcassette recorder and play back proof they are lying, and the immediate response is to jump your case for recording them and are told "it says you don't trust us", that messes with you.

OH my goodness. That story took place in Ontario. Not meaning it didn't take place in Missouri, but it also took place in the church where I grew up. Like, verbatim. It was the only way to prove anything, but obviously wouldn't hold up in a court of law.

This was Farmington, NM. I was also blatantly lied to in Missouri, but I did not have the technology to document it.

[Neto]

That was a good response, and I'll reply accordingly. That "person" was me. This happened at Farmington, NM.

If you of your own conviction come forward and confess to sin, struggles to overcome etcetera and they apply an automatic excommunication...

I was miserable under the burden of sin. I called the preacher Dale Martin at 2 am one morning. He graciously invited me over and I confessed everything (or so I thought). As I prepared to leave, he gently reminded me that this would result in excommunication. I replied that I was aware of that but I didn't care. I just wanted to be right with God. (I mention Dale's name because he was kind and I will forever be grateful for his kindness that night.)

Makes perfect sense when you cover up sin and try to deceive someone about it.

I tend to agree. Seems this is what Scripture is saying.

Nationwide doesn't practice the ban,

Some did. I am not sure if they still do. They have not fundamentally changed as an organization, so who knows?

so what exactly are you referring to when you say he was excommunicated and then the slapped the ban on him after he confessed to one more thing?

I was excommunicated the following Sunday morning. On Tuesday I remembered the casino visit. It came as a jolt. I wrestled, because I knew how it would be interpreted (that's a red flag right there, y'all), but I decided I was going all the way, regardless if people believed me or not.

So I confessed this thing too. The next day, after prayer meeting I was summoned to the basement to the upper grade school room for a meeting with the ministry. There I was informed of their disappointment. hey told me they believed my sincerity at first, but that one does not simply forget such a major sin. They were glad I went through with confessing, but because of my lack of sincerity, they were placing me under the ban. That meant zero social interaction, zero meals with members except with the immediate family I lived with, etc. This was all clearly spelled out to me, and the words "ban" and "shunning" were used.

Sounds to me that he's better off finding another church if that is how his church handled his repentance.

I did. But it took a final, and third excommunication before I learned my lesson. That one was political in nature.

Mistakes do happen, but the wounds don't heal quickly at all.

Yes. It was devastating to me, and was a significant driver of the bitterness that for years consumed my heart. Some of the denizens of the old MD witnessed that bitterness and the repentance of it.

But I got the ultimate revenge. I forgave them and I love them. I literally go out of my way to connect with some of the people involved. I have no pain. I am grateful for the journey.

More...

I have testimony on tape of chilling corruption by a now deceased top dog bishop and R&S board member. I have visited for hours with this man. I have family who were in top leadership at R&S. I have experienced things and witnessed things that should never be named in the church of Christ. When you are an unbeliever and break into the preacher's house when he is out of town, and access the preacher's meeting notes and discover gross and clear corruption, by the same people who were constantly haranguing you to get your life right with God, it messes with you big time.

When you know the man who just encouraged you to get right with God is fooling around with his daughters, it messes with you.

When you access another famous preacher's files and discover a file filled with a weird obsession about sexual matters, and sexualized advertising, and it's the same guy, never mind, I don't wanna give a hint who it was, it messes with you.

When you surreptitiously record a meeting with the preachers and their sidekick, then in a subsequent meeting bring up points and are told to your face that this never happened, and this is verified by everyone in the room, then you whip out your microcassette recorder and play back proof they are lying, and the immediate response is to jump your case for recording them and are told "it says you don't trust us", that messes with you.

I could go on about gross corruption and sin for hours and hours. And that's only the things I have directly witnessed and experienced.

Some say, yes your church at Grandin was messed up. Yes, but so was Farmington, and Belen, and Seymour (different fellowship) and on and on. Be the troubled kid and you find out tons of stuff that goes on. Gross sexual misconduct was rampant across these churches, and not just among the young people and children.

Again, I got the ultimate revenge. I forgave them and I love them. I literally go out of my way to connect with some of the people involved. I consider some of them my friends. I have no pain. I am grateful for the journey.

I only speak up here because I mildly resent what feels like a whitewashing of a very corrupt system. Those systems are evil. The people, a few are evil, most by far are sincere servants of the Lord.

It just really bugs me to see some of the criticism of those who speak up, and the general whitewashing here.

I also know, there will most likely be attempts to discredit my experience and my stories. It is typical to dismiss me as just another bitter "ex".

Can we just all admit our sins and repent instead? Is that asking too much?

Again, for emphasis... the systems are evil. The people, some are evil, most by far are sincere servants of the Lord.

I almost feel guilty for not having ever experienced anything like this. But it grieves me deeply - to tears - to know that it happens in the House of God. Further, it grieves me to remember that when a "run-away" young man "just happened" to take a job at the (Oldsmobile) dealership parts department where my Dad worked, that after befriending this young man, and hearing why he had come to Tulsa, that my dad encouraged him to go back home & make peace, and that the young man followed Dad's advice. Not if his case was entirely different, but if he went back to this kind of spiritual abuse, I'm really sorry for the fact that Dad was ignorant of what could have been the real issue. (I never met this young man, nor do I know his name, and my Dad passed away last December, but he had already long, long ago lost all memory of such things, due to Alzheimer's. I'll see if my Mom might remember, and if she has a name, I'll write you a PM.)

[ragpicker]

The day I left home (against everyone's wishes). Daniel Good called with a flimsy excuse to delay me until he could stop by. He showed up, and the flimsiness of his excuse was laughable in retrospect. I don't care though, because I will always remember the real reason. He wanted to tell me he loved me and would be praying for me. Daniel was a good'un, no pun intended. How he survived in that system, I will never know. Actually, he didn't. He was bullied and kicked out as preacher and excommunicated. He kept loving. What a man.

J. Glenn Miller of Farmington/Belen, NM was another good'un.

The system tried to destroy these preachermen, but they were filled with a Love that comes from above.

I just think it fair to acknowledge the gems among the darkness.

[Signtist]

I can't remember just a lot of sermon titles from my teen years. But Daniel's sermon "Walk About Zion" stayed with me. He obviously knew what the score was at our church. How a minister resigning, and nobody would give reasons for it had people pretty discouraged. That may well be the only time I remember a Mennonite preacher recommending people go visit other churches, to see what God is doing elsewhere.

I also remember my brother-in-law preaching a sermon called "Snakes and Ladders." Can't tell you what that was about tho. He didn't last as a minister, so I don't remember him much.