By Thy Words

[Soloist]

Yes, that's why it's good people can choose the ecclesiology that they know they can commit to.

What I lack sympathy for us making a commitment and then complaining about the commitment you just made. If you don't want to be part of a church with discipline and standards, might I suggest not trying to join one? 99% of churches out there have hardly any discipline at all, and will be eager to have a new regular attender.

I suppose that some of us just have deeper struggles then just complaints...

[Josh]

Yes, that's why it's good people can choose the ecclesiology that they know they can commit to.

What I lack sympathy for us making a commitment and then complaining about the commitment you just made. If you don't want to be part of a church with discipline and standards, might I suggest not trying to join one? 99% of churches out there have hardly any discipline at all, and will be eager to have a new regular attender.

I suppose that some of us just have deeper struggles then just complaints...

Indeed, I've never dealt with my church (or a past church I was a part of) having a complaint with me and compliance with a specific church-standard issue.

Other things have been far more important.

Once, a deacon felt I should take better care of our lawn. We were living in the house of someone who went to the mission, filling in for a few months, so we stayed there temporarily and paid the mortagge & bills, etc. The deacons felt responsible for the upkeep of the property of people who go to the mission. One of them let me know the couple that was in the mission would appreciate having a very nicely kept lawn, as he was particular about that.

Not a church standard but an appropriate thing for brethren to tell one another to encourage each other to love and good deeds.

[Sliceitup]

Ahhh… but this becomes problematic when membership is seen as synonymous with baptism and your vows to Christ. Because then leaving the church is also seen as not upholding your vows.

And it really messes with people’s minds to say that extra rules are now part of Christianity just because you agreed to them. Because then what happens when your faith grows and your understanding of Christ is no longer the same? Are you then forsaking Christ if you no longer follow those original rules you agreed to?

It’s one thing to have extra biblical rules. But when you make no allowance for people deciding to no longer follow those rules and still be followers of Christ then that’s spiritual abuse.

This is exactly why I would never join a church that would excommunicate someone who left for somewhere else. I and my wife specifically insured that you could retract your membership.

I disagree that we should take vows at all but thats another discussion entirely. As for the extra rules part of Christianity, Jesus said let your yes be yes and your no be no. If you change your mind, retract your membership/go somewhere you can support.

I dispute that asking someone to follow what they agreed to is spiritual abuse. If you don't like the rules, don't join or go somewhere else. If you do not uphold what you say you would, then your word is worthless and any spiritual growth is false. A true Christian who felt they could no longer abide by what they agreed to should find somewhere else. This may cost membership, relations and so on in some churches as you leave, the effect after you change your position could be spiritual abuse though.

I guess I wasn’t very clear because what I was trying to say is that in some churches even leaving the church for another, where you can agree with the standards, is considered wrong and breaking vows.

[Soloist]

I guess I wasn’t very clear because what I was trying to say is that in some churches even leaving the church for another, where you can agree with the standards, is considered wrong and breaking vows.

Well, certainly that would be true across denominational lines, you can't be Orthodox and then switch to Catholic or Protestant. I guess I disagree within denominational lines. I might object to someone who was Conservative Mennonite going to liberal Mennonite but in the grand scheme of things it really wouldn't change anything in the spiritual perspective.

I'm specifically thinking gender affirming and membership for actively homosexual liberal Mennonites, I make no specific judgement past unbiblical churches.

[Josh]

I guess I wasn’t very clear because what I was trying to say is that in some churches even leaving the church for another, where you can agree with the standards, is considered wrong and breaking vows.

I belong to one of these churches. There are exactly 2 Mennonite groups that have this doctrine. The rest of the Mennonites, ranging from Amish to conservative Mennonites to Brethren to everybody in between, disagrees with us on this.

I'm not really sure what the big deal is. If you don't want to be part of a church like this, then don't join one. If you think they're really bad and wrong, you should be delighted to leave one and get away from it, if you do join. It's like sitting around and complaining about how bad the Episcopalians are because you just can't imagine a church with red doors. If you don't like red doors then don't go to a church with red doors.

[Josh]

I guess I wasn’t very clear because what I was trying to say is that in some churches even leaving the church for another, where you can agree with the standards, is considered wrong and breaking vows.

Well, certainly that would be true across denominational lines, you can't be Orthodox and then switch to Catholic or Protestant. I guess I disagree within denominational lines. I might object to someone who was Conservative Mennonite going to liberal Mennonite but in the grand scheme of things it really wouldn't change anything in the spiritual perspective.

I'm specifically thinking gender affirming and membership for actively homosexual liberal Mennonites, I make no specific judgement past unbiblical churches.

Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Holdemans, Mormons, and a few other denominations consider themselves the "one true church". Most Protestants have a very different view of church.

[ABC 123]

I guess I wasn’t very clear because what I was trying to say is that in some churches even leaving the church for another, where you can agree with the standards, is considered wrong and breaking vows.

I belong to one of these churches. There are exactly 2 Mennonite groups that have this doctrine. The rest of the Mennonites, ranging from Amish to conservative Mennonites to Brethren to everybody in between, disagrees with us on this.

I'm not really sure what the big deal is. If you don't want to be part of a church like this, then don't join one. If you think they're really bad and wrong, you should be delighted to leave one and get away from it, if you do join. It's like sitting around and complaining about how bad the Episcopalians are because you just can't imagine a church with red doors. If you don't like red doors then don't go to a church with red doors.

Why ever discuss false doctrine? Just leave a church or never go to it to start with.

Yet, here you are with a lot to say about other church's practices, even going so far as to brush off anyone else's experiences in churches you never went to.

[Josh]

Why ever discuss false doctrine? Just leave a church or never go to it to start with.

Yet, here you are with a lot to say about other church's practices, even going so far as to brush off anyone else's experiences in churches you never went to.

Because a group of people frequently commenting/criticising denominations that have nobody here to represent them in a positive light is pretty pointless. We could just as well go to an atheism forum where all Christianity gets criticised.

I don't sit around here and criticise groups I used to be a part of. I used to be a part of the group appleman, signtist etc. are part of. I had some extremely negative experiences there. I don't spend much time on here talking about it and do not wish to name and shame their specific churches and fellowships. How does doing that build up the body of Christ?

[ABC 123]

Why ever discuss false doctrine? Just leave a church or never go to it to start with.

Yet, here you are with a lot to say about other church's practices, even going so far as to brush off anyone else's experiences in churches you never went to.

Because a group of people frequently commenting/criticising denominations that have nobody here to represent them in a positive light is pretty pointless. We could just as well go to an atheism forum where all Christianity gets criticised.

I don't sit around here and criticise groups I used to be a part of. I used to be a part of the group appleman, signtist etc. are part of. I had some extremely negative experiences there. I don't spend much time on here talking about it and do not wish to name and shame their specific churches and fellowships. How does doing that build up the body of Christ?

You have an interesting sense of entitlement to the proverbial microphone.

[Josh]

You have an interesting sense of entitlement to the proverbial microphone.

ABC, with respect, I've really never seen you post much at all other than criticising whatever more-conservative group you came from. And nothing positive at all spoken about any of your experiences there.

It's rather one-dimensional. If you don't like conservative Mennonites, hanging out on a forum started by a conservative Beachy-Amish Mennonite seems like an odd choice.