By Thy Words

[Signtist]

By the way, folks, this is how abuse happens. Because people are afraid to speak up or notice.

But when sexual abuse is discovered and spoken against in those churches, then what happens? I know the answer, unfortunately.

[Soloist]

Most of the examples rattled off have to do with generalized standards to begin with. While I don't think the color of socks should matter, it is going to offend some to come in bright pink socks for example.

The comment about sermons, maybe its just I've had that happen to me, but I would find that horrible.

Also about it being control, I don't think its really about control intentionally, I think that generally these guidelines are agreed upon by the church members or even brought up by the church members. This could also be a perspective of a bishop centric church versus a member centric church... I think a hybrid is a good model.

If the Bishop is about control... yeah things would go poorly. If the Bishop has idea's similar to Cory for upbringing or conviction but genuinely cares about you, would he not attempt to guide you to it?

It seems like much of this has to do with how tight they hold the reins or a mix of a wholesale rejection of extrabiblical standards. So rather then worry about if you watch movies, what would you consider acceptable for a church to ask of its members in regard to modesty? Its easy to read between the lines and see some of you as rejecting any extrabiblical standards. Care to present examples of what is acceptable?

I don't believe Christians get closer to Jesus watching movies. I would say the opposite.
I also don't believe Christians get closer to Jesus mandating sock colors, I would say the opposite.

While I believe these statements to both be true, I also think that a church can set guidelines and boundaries for its members.

[ABC 123]

By the way, folks, this is how abuse happens. Because people are afraid to speak up or notice.

But when sexual abuse is discovered and spoken against in those churches, then what happens? I know the answer, unfortunately.

I know too. Those who speak up are put through tests and endure attempts to rabbit trail away from the issue.

[Signtist]

I think that generally these guidelines are agreed upon by the church members or even brought up by the church members.

What you think would be incorrect then. Sure, certain ones would be agreed to when you join the church, but then others randomly get added with no member input.

[Josh]

I think that generally these guidelines are agreed upon by the church members or even brought up by the church members.

What you think would be incorrect then. Sure, certain ones would be agreed to when you join the church, but then others randomly get added with no member input.

I’ve never been part of a group that functioned like that. Perhaps that’s why I have a more positive view of “church standards”.

[RZehr]

I think that generally these guidelines are agreed upon by the church members or even brought up by the church members.

What you think would be incorrect then. Sure, certain ones would be agreed to when you join the church, but then others randomly get added with no member input.

That would be difficult. When some of the CB radio/dark footwear, stuff was happening briefly in my church in my youth, that is sort of what was going on. They were not matters that the church decided, they were matters that some leaders and some others were promoting. Ultimately, that is why they failed, there just wasn’t buy in from the church. The leaders did not have the power or sufficient support to unilaterally add standards.

[Josh]

I think that generally these guidelines are agreed upon by the church members or even brought up by the church members.

What you think would be incorrect then. Sure, certain ones would be agreed to when you join the church, but then others randomly get added with no member input.

That would be difficult. When some of the CB radio/dark footwear, stuff was happening briefly in my church in my youth, that is sort of what was going on. They were not matters that the church decided, they were matters that some leaders and some others were promoting. Ultimately, that is why they failed, there just wasn’t buy in from the church. The leaders did not have the power or sufficient support to unilaterally add standards.

These kind of “fads” are actually a more compelling reason to beware of books like Anderson’s that promote intellectual, fundamentalist reasons to, for example, ban floral prints on fabric. A much better reason is to simply say that our tradition is not to do that and we find it best not to follow fashion fads and trends.

[Soloist]

What you think would be incorrect then. Sure, certain ones would be agreed to when you join the church, but then others randomly get added with no member input.

That would be difficult. When some of the CB radio/dark footwear, stuff was happening briefly in my church in my youth, that is sort of what was going on. They were not matters that the church decided, they were matters that some leaders and some others were promoting. Ultimately, that is why they failed, there just wasn’t buy in from the church. The leaders did not have the power or sufficient support to unilaterally add standards.

These kind of “fads” are actually a more compelling reason to beware of books like Anderson’s that promote intellectual, fundamentalist reasons to, for example, ban floral prints on fabric. A much better reason is to simply say that our tradition is not to do that and we find it best not to follow fashion fads and trends.

While churches with leaders that add standards without support of the church should not be that way, I don't think this is the norm. Certainly not in any Conservative Mennonite church I've gone to and I've seen more then most Mennonites have. The general premise still seems anti standard though so I repeat the question. What standards are you okay with a church imposing?

[Josh]

That would be difficult. When some of the CB radio/dark footwear, stuff was happening briefly in my church in my youth, that is sort of what was going on. They were not matters that the church decided, they were matters that some leaders and some others were promoting. Ultimately, that is why they failed, there just wasn’t buy in from the church. The leaders did not have the power or sufficient support to unilaterally add standards.

These kind of “fads” are actually a more compelling reason to beware of books like Anderson’s that promote intellectual, fundamentalist reasons to, for example, ban floral prints on fabric. A much better reason is to simply say that our tradition is not to do that and we find it best not to follow fashion fads and trends.

While churches with leaders that add standards without support of the church should not be that way, I don't think this is the norm. Certainly not in any Conservative Mennonite church I've gone to and I've seen more then most Mennonites have. The general premise still seems anti standard though so I repeat the question. What standards are you okay with a church imposing?

Ones the membership agrees on, since I think “the church” consists of the church’s membership. That means some of my pet issues don’t become church standards even tho I think they’d be a good idea. I think curtailing smartphone Internet use would be a good idea - the majority of my brethren don’t agree, so I don’t push it.

[Signtist]

The general premise still seems anti standard though so I repeat the question. What standards are you okay with a church imposing?

FYI, the church we're members at now has standards. We don't hear them preached across the pulpit, and I don't miss that. I frankly don't recall what the standards all are, I do know there is room to challenge or totally disagree with them and you won't get threats of church "punishment." Frankly, our standards are basically suggestions, and I wasn't used to that. So I asked about it. Our leadership said the way they view it is that standards are for the weakest members. If someone gets way off track, they can be pointed to the guideline and told, "Hey, friend. Here's actually what we expect. So some cooperation would be appreciated." I wasn't used to that concept. Not sure if it's right or wrong, but its our reality.