We don't need to be afraid of CRT

[Josh]

Bootstrap,

There aren't a lot of biblical black Mennonite churches

This is patently false. The black-skinned Mennonite world has more members than the European background light skinned world.

In my own denomination there are about 1,500 members and somewhere around 50 in leadership who would meet the definition of “black” and “Mennonite”, and presumably I think our denomination is “biblical” too.

In the United States or elsewhere? I was very much thinking of the United States when I wrote that.

I’m not a nationalist, so I don’t care about this “United States” you speak of. My brethren in Canada, I see no difference them and me. Nor my brethren in Haiti. Recently, government actions have made it hard to see our brothers and sisters as much as we are used to.

As far as ethnic differences are concerned, my church used to not intermarry between people with a background from Flanders, Belgium vs Friesland, Netherlands. There were just too many conflicts. Even now, most people in our church are either one or the other.

I don’t have much contact with ones on the other side of the world so don’t feel as close to them.

Perhaps my perspective is fuelled by not having a clear national identity myself. If America and Australia went to war, whose side would I be on?
If America and Australia conspired to invade Hungary, would I want to support the Hungarian side? The obvious answer for the Christian is that none of these earthly citizenships matter.

[Ken]

Bootstrap,



This is patently false. The black-skinned Mennonite world has more members than the European background light skinned world.

In my own denomination there are about 1,500 members and somewhere around 50 in leadership who would meet the definition of “black” and “Mennonite”, and presumably I think our denomination is “biblical” too.

In the United States or elsewhere? I was very much thinking of the United States when I wrote that.

I’m not a nationalist, so I don’t care about this “United States” you speak of. My brethren in Canada, I see no difference them and me. Nor my brethren in Haiti. Recently, government actions have made it hard to see our brothers and sisters as much as we are used to.

As far as ethnic differences are concerned, my church used to not intermarry between people with a background from Flanders, Belgium vs Friesland, Netherlands. There were just too many conflicts. Even now, most people in our church are either one or the other.

I don’t have much contact with ones on the other side of the world so don’t feel as close to them.

Perhaps my perspective is fuelled by not having a clear national identity myself. If America and Australia went to war, whose side would I be on?
If America and Australia conspired to invade Hungary, would I want to support the Hungarian side? The obvious answer for the Christian is that none of these earthly citizenships matter.

One hopes that you would be on the side of peace in every one of those hypothetical conflicts.

And I would argue that citizenship does matter. I tend to think that you have a greater obligation to witness for peace in your own country and community than one across the planet with which you have no connection. I am more concerned, for example, about how the US military is deployed around the world in my name than I am about how the Russian military is deployed around the world in the name of Russia. So I am more concerned about US troops in Afghanistan than Russian troops in Ukraine. They might be both equally bad. But as a citizen of the US I have more obligation with respect to the former than the latter. One army is acting on my behalf, the other is not. Similarly, I'm more concerned and interested state and local government policy here in Washington than I am in say....Tennessee or Newfoundland.

[temporal1]

This isn’t a joke. My nieces got some school supplies as gifts and accidentally got ones with rainbow unicorns and the word “pride”.
Fortunately, their parents were able to explain that pride is a sin, and we don’t want to promote sin.

i couldn’t bring myself to put it in “i think it is funny” thread. i’m not sure how anyone can miss it, whether in brick+mortar stores or online shopping. it’s been present and INCREASING for years.

everyone’s children are primary targets. this cartoon suggests college age gear. it begins in the CRADLE.
public school hallways are full of it. relentlous propaganda.
it’s sad that children are naturally drawn to some of these bright graphics, esp blasphemy of God’s created rainbow.

in my view, the CAMEL CIGARETTE LAWSUIT that fined Camel big time, should be roundly preventing much of this direct marketing to children.

there is much to grieve as it unfolds right before everyone’s eyes.

so many have voted for ALL of it. often in abject denial. not always. many are just proud.

i was happy when i learned of my grdaughter learning about the sin of pride in her Catholic kindergarten school.
honestly, i was happy they did not waste time in getting into many hard scriptural topics with young children.
i’m grateful for the years she had there. esp in this location, a world epi-center for celebration of pride and sin.

children are swimming in it. i pray for the Holy Spirit to intervene, to guide them and protect them.

[Szdfan]

Bootstrap,

There aren't a lot of biblical black Mennonite churches

This is patently false. The black-skinned Mennonite world has more members than the European background light skinned world.

In my own denomination there are about 1,500 members and somewhere around 50 in leadership who would meet the definition of “black” and “Mennonite”, and presumably I think our denomination is “biblical” too.

In the United States or elsewhere? I was very much thinking of the United States when I wrote that.

Ethiopia has the largest Mennonite denomination in the world, but I would agree that while I’m aware of a number of “ethnic” Mennonite congregations in North America there are many more white or mostly white Mennonite churches.

[temporal1]

Bootstrap,

There aren't a lot of biblical black Mennonite churches

This is patently false. The black-skinned Mennonite world has more members than the European background light skinned world.

In my own denomination there are about 1,500 members and somewhere around 50 in leadership who would meet the definition of “black” and “Mennonite”, and presumably I think our denomination is “biblical” too.

i was hoping someone would note this. i’ve read about it, uncontested, on this forum, for 10 years.
to ignore this reflects the depth of nuanced thinking that all Christians/Mennonites are not equal, at all.
conversely, many Catholics are looking to Catholic leadership in Africa for future leadership, including Cardinal Sarah for Pope.

Catholics do a pretty good job of recognizing their Church boundaries are not national boundaries.
Of course, many of their most faithful and sincere believers are NOT in the U.S. or western Europe!

i find this about sincere faith often true in various Christian denoms. “Blessed are” .. .. Matthew 5.
(not the fattest and wealthiest) no matter location.

When our son was in love with a lovely young woman from Brazil, he was not paying attention to her faith.
i counseled him to be aware of her Catholic faith, and to not expect her faith to look like U.S. Catholics he met in everyday U.S., i.e., no outward evidence of faith. To expect a more conservative, respectful view in her and in her family.

He was very sad she eventually declined a future with him. i pray she is well and blessed in Brazil.
In time, God provided. i’m so happy to say.

[joshuabgood]

We aren’t afraid of CRT. We don’t need it to tell us how we ought to live, or explain to us why people do sinful things either.

If one were to ask members of your congregation why white people are on average 7 times wealthier than black people...what do you think their response would be? Or why there are so many more black people in prison than white people proportionally? What would you/they say? Or why CA churches are so white...

Not sure what my quote has to do with your questions. I’m scratching my head. The only thing I can finally figure out- Are you really reading into my quote about “sinful things”, as in black people are poor and in jail or whatever because of their own actions, i.e. “sinful things”? If so, please remove your "everywhiteMennoniteisasecretracist" X-ray goggles.
I meant that as in we Christians in the church, do not need CRT or anything else to explain or excuse sinful things such as racism, or greed, or how to respond to spite or unfairness. I meant that we aren't afraid of CRT. Not afraid that it is right, not afraid that it is wrong. It may very well be mostly right. Doesn't matter, we already are told how to live and treat people and how to accept mistreatment.

Thanks for writing this...

I wasn't sure what you meant, but CRT provides a social explanation for why black people are marginalized economically and socially. So I wanted to know simply how you and your church would answer the question as to why black people are 7 times poorer, more likely to go to jail, etc etc. It isn't, unfortunately, uncommon for some white Christians to explain this lower status to black people by blaming the victims. Arguments like the "Father's aren't home" or "they have sex outside of marriage" or "they commit more crimes" or "they are lazy" or other things like that...and if they would just stop complaining, get over their victim mentality, and work a little harder things would go better for them because no one is racist anymore. With the implication also being that "white" people don't have the same sinful behaviors. The questioning doesn't always proceed further to asking additional "why" questions or what are the systems in place that are inherently racist that provoke, and have provoked this condition.

Secondly, CRT primarily focuses itself not on individual/personal racism but on how racism permeates society and culture. So I am not intending to targeting you or your church specifically as racist. That said, I see the truth being that racism is the sin of pride and our propensity to favor people that look and remind us of us. And beings that is part of the human condition, much like lust, greed, etc, we all carry the propensity for explicit and implicit bias. That doesn't mean we are terrible people. It means we are in need of continuing growth and ongoing sanctification. Sermons on racism/favoritism should be received in the same way that sermons on greed or lust should be received.

7 times? We may already have that wealth discrepancy within our church. Wealth discrepancy is hardly something that we focus on. We believe the rich should live a modest and content life, and give generously as stewards of God. We believe that the poor are blessed, and the rich are warned. We believe poverty to be undesirable but not sinful.

In my opinion wealth discrepancy in the CA church deserves further reflection in light of "all things in common" as well as the teachings of Jesus on giving...that said, it isn't the point I was trying to make. The point is that black people are 7 times poorer on average as a direct correlation to their skin color. That is shocking when you think about it. If you are born black, you will likely be 7 times poorer. CRT provides an explanation for this that goes beyond black people don't work as hard or they are lazy or they don't save.

As far as black people concern us, you have to realize that I may only see one black person in any given month. And they seem to be (based on the two I talked with and done business with here), doing just fine financially. So forgive us if we have more pressing things to be concerned about than black peoples financial prosperity. My county has 0.26% Black or African Americans (which is the highest black percentage in this tri-county area). And 11.7% of all families in my county live in poverty.

I understand. Locally you are pretty removed from the problem. Still, in our society at large, these racial issues present opportunities for some of us to be involved in the work of racial reconciliation.

However, too your first two questions, I’d probably answer them much the same way you would. I’d say they were wildly mistreated. And today I expect in certain areas ethnic pride and racism is still alive and well. I think they are profiled.

I agree and think this is in essence some of the key points of CRT.

I believe that broadly speaking, Black people (both African-Americans from slave times and recent immigrants from Africa or anywhere else) face overt racism or unconscious biases in this country, which is unfortunate to say the least.
But I contend that I have not seen much of this in our churches, and no, I don't believe for one minute that the lack of blacks in my church is an indictment of anything. Any white seeker that joins our churches can tell of the difficulty of doing so. So I can imagine a black person would have all those difficulties, plus a sense of loneliness on top of it. Just as I suppose I'd have if I joined a black church in a predominately black country. And it is up to the church to put forth the extra effort to make the white seeker, or the black seeker/person feel one with the others.
Where we probably differ, is that I do not believe that black middle class people here in many states (maybe not all states) have any more roadblocks to financial or educational or housing opportunities than white middle class people do. I think there is a wide swath of black poverty that is more immobile than white poverty, but those differences narrow quite dramatically in the middle class and upward. To be clear, I'm not backing this up with data, that is just my opinion.

I agree with pretty much everything you write here. The truth is I don't know your church, though I have fairly wide experience across many CA environments in the East and Midwest. My personal feeling is that while there isn't a lot of malicious individual racism (there is some), there are more broadly cultural systems if you will that would make it very difficult for a person of color to thrive in the CA world. I have good friends of color, some in leadership positions (in schools/ministry) that are really wrestling deeply and profoundly with trying to overcome the systemic racial biases in the CA circles. Some of their stories (Daniel and June Pollard, and others) are shared over at the website Restorative Faith. Keyshawn Washington as well has written about this at length.

As far as to why blacks are in prison more, I think there is tons of studies on that. I wouldn't necessarily find fault with those studies. I'd say its probably a combination of unconscious bias, conscious profiling, and then of course criminal activity. On the criminal activity portion, I'd guess it is a combination of poverty/broken homes, and unequal arrests, prosecution and sentencing, particularly in comparison with white upper-middle class Americans. I'm broadly speaking here. I don't think white trash treated terribly much better, and I suppose black upper-middle class Americans fare better than the poor. And of course there are most likely regional variations when it comes to consistency too.

I almost totally agree here. And if you are rich you definitely get a different justice system. Though I think poor whites still benefit to a degree from white privilege. I myself was/is a poor white from a very rural region of the south, and my "whiteness" let me move very fluidly in many many social contexts. And, it is a long story, but as a young man I received quite a bit of clemency from a judge once in a courtroom. Would it have happened that way if I were black? I don't know...but many got jail time for what I did, and I walked out of there with the absolute minimum punishment.

I'm not here to defend "fundamental conservative" racist churches that want to wave Trump flags and look like the world. Nor am I here to swallow some worldly liberal antidote for Trumpism. And maybe that isn't what CRT is (it's been a while since I tried to educate myself on what CRT is.). And to whatever extent ultra conservatives churches may have unconscious racial biases, they need to work on that too. But the fact remains that the Bible does sufficiently contain the answers for racism and economic disparity and earthly power.

I appreciate this also.

Do you think our church is racist based only on the fact that not one black person is a member? Or do you accept that local demographics must be reasonably factored in?

Hopefully above I cleared that up. I am not accusing your church in particular of racism. I do think the CA church as a whole has suffered a blindspot with regard to ethnocentric preference and mixing up holiness with culture. In that, at times they have created systems that make it very difficult for a person of color (or from another culture for that matter) to be incorporated. Josh Nisly at Restorative Faith spoke to how his wife experienced some of these things.

The thing about identity is important. I think that as you have become more liberal, you are also unconsciously identifying more with the "white power structure". And as such, you feel that you should use your platform for good. And perhaps that is not all bad, to use ones platform for good. But what is more concerning, is your self identity. Historically, our people have had an identify of weakness. We were taught to be willing to go the second mile by Jesus. We were taught to turn the other cheek. Then in the Reformation era we again rejected government and power, and were again a persecuted people. And then more recently in WW1 we were spat on, our churches shot with guns, because we were not patriotic. Our identify and our DNA is to be the powerless, and the persecuted and to be the ones taken advantage of WILLINGLY. The more Mennonites become worldly, the more worldly they become, and they assimilate the ideas of their community. And so, some will become attracted to conservative causes and politics, for the same way and reason their rural community is. And some will become attracted to liberal causes and politics, for the same way and reasons their urban area is.
But if we can maintain our identity as it historically has been, we have a completely different take on racism. Instead of standing shoulder to shoulder with and as one of the powerful of the land, we find ourselves seeing a group of people who, like ourselves, are being given the short end of the stick. We plain people have rejected the levers of power, the levers of voting machines (and the levers of the casinos ) We are culturally accustom to withdrawing from those things as a Biblical response to temptations of power, and persecution. We should be inviting and teaching the black community that there is a way to live as a poor and powerless minority community in this nation. Than could be our contribution. Not telling them that they should resent their position, and take by force what is fair and just.

I agree again with most of what you write. It is hard for me to accept the label "liberal." And I am not sure what you mean by that. Politically, well, I am apolitical with regard to worldly politics. And even if I wasn't, my views on abortion, alternate sexual practice, and the economic impact of safety net programs, taxation...wouldn't go far in the liberal party. If you mean liberal with regard to CA...I also resist that label a bit. While it is true I don't have a strong support for ethnic practices as church standards, I usually find myself more conservative with regard to political involvement, financial accumulation, methods of evangelism, etc.

I also reject violence as a lever of change. That won't work...though I am sure it is tempting for many in the black community. I would idealize seeing the church, as a whole, take the lead in the USA in seeking racial reconciliation. And some have...but unfortunately the more "conservative" wing of the USA church has been on the wrong side of the racial issues for hundreds of years. And while CA's never approved of slavery, as long as it didn't impact them they were "too silent" in my view with regard to speaking up prophetically. They spoke up with regard to "the draft" in the Civil War (where they partnered with Thaddeus Stevens to secure commutation fees and hiring sustitutes) and WWII most notably securing CPS. What witness might it have left if they had spoken up similarly on behalf of other marginalized peoples?

[Josh]

Bootstrap,



This is patently false. The black-skinned Mennonite world has more members than the European background light skinned world.

In my own denomination there are about 1,500 members and somewhere around 50 in leadership who would meet the definition of “black” and “Mennonite”, and presumably I think our denomination is “biblical” too.

In the United States or elsewhere? I was very much thinking of the United States when I wrote that.

Ethiopia has the largest Mennonite denomination in the world, but I would agree that while I’m aware of a number of “ethnic” Mennonite congregations in North America there are many more white or mostly white Mennonite churches.

Why should we care about national boundaries at all?

[joshuabgood]

Josh:
Why are more men in prison than women? Is this due to systemic bias against men?

There are compelling reasons to think that yes...in fact there is systemic bias against men with regard to incarceration.

“in fact”.
you are a sweet young thing.

suggestion: less of this, more GaryK.

Thanks for the kind words. I am now old enough to appreciate being called young. If you look it up...you will find there is very good literature that shows men are treated differently by the legal system than are women. There are various explanations for this...but more work needs to be done.

[Josh]

joshgood,

Are you saying you want Conservative Anabaptists to be more racially conscious?

Do you want us to accept this false division of mankind into “white” and “black”, or not? For the typical CA, the division of “CA” vs “not CA” is far more important to them.

To give a more obvious example, I wouldn’t have any concerns with one my children marrying what you would call “black” provided they were a church member. I would be gravely concerned and would not grant my blessing to them marrying one of your “white” children, unless they became a member of our church first, which I bet you wouldn’t be comfortable with.

It seems this bothers you and you think we should become much more race conscious. But worrying about race is not and hasn’t been a priority so far in any of our intra church discussions. The biggest problems facing non “white” church members is challenges with higher education since they live in countries where higher education is more needed than in America and dealing with unstable national governments. Interestingly, Canada now has that exact same problem.

[Josh]

In the United States or elsewhere? I was very much thinking of the United States when I wrote that.

I’m not a nationalist, so I don’t care about this “United States” you speak of. My brethren in Canada, I see no difference them and me. Nor my brethren in Haiti. Recently, government actions have made it hard to see our brothers and sisters as much as we are used to.

As far as ethnic differences are concerned, my church used to not intermarry between people with a background from Flanders, Belgium vs Friesland, Netherlands. There were just too many conflicts. Even now, most people in our church are either one or the other.

I don’t have much contact with ones on the other side of the world so don’t feel as close to them.

Perhaps my perspective is fuelled by not having a clear national identity myself. If America and Australia went to war, whose side would I be on?
If America and Australia conspired to invade Hungary, would I want to support the Hungarian side? The obvious answer for the Christian is that none of these earthly citizenships matter.

One hopes that you would be on the side of peace in every one of those hypothetical conflicts.

And I would argue that citizenship does matter. I tend to think that you have a greater obligation to witness for peace in your own country and community than one across the planet with which you have no connection. I am more concerned, for example, about how the US military is deployed around the world in my name than I am about how the Russian military is deployed around the world in the name of Russia. So I am more concerned about US troops in Afghanistan than Russian troops in Ukraine. They might be both equally bad. But as a citizen of the US I have more obligation with respect to the former than the latter. One army is acting on my behalf, the other is not. Similarly, I'm more concerned and interested state and local government policy here in Washington than I am in say....Tennessee or Newfoundland.

The fact you say “your own country” means you already identify with a country and embrace nationalism. A Christian should have no national allegiances at all. And no, I’m not responsible for American wars of aggression in Afghanistan - not that I have any power to stop them.

As far as Russia being in the part of Russia commonly called Ukraine, I’m not sure how that’s any more relevant than the American military being in Pearl Harbour.