We don't need to be afraid of CRT

[joshuabgood]

I appreciate what you wrote Neto. I would add I don't see it as an either/or regarding personal sin/salvation versus societal sin/salvation, as much as a both/and. Liberation theology represented the other half of the coin that often got neglected by Protestant missionaries emphasis on merely "spiritual" and personal salvation rather than a Kingdom centric approach to salvation on earth as also in heaven. Perhaps the good news is much more than personal salvation from hell fire. Maybe it is literally the Kingdom of God being at hand and the arrival of the King, who set up that kingdom.

[GaryK]

I appreciate what you wrote Neto. I would add I don't see it as an either/or regarding personal sin/salvation versus societal sin/salvation, as much as a both/and. Liberation theology represented the other half of the coin that often got neglected by Protestant missionaries emphasis on merely "spiritual" and personal salvation rather than a Kingdom centric approach to salvation on earth as also in heaven. Perhaps the good news is much more than personal salvation from hell fire. Maybe it is literally the Kingdom of God being at hand and the arrival of the King, who set up that kingdom.

I agree with much of this, especially the part I bolded. But, it raises a question in my mind. Are you under the impression that most theologians and Christian academics would agree with your view on this? If the answer is no, I'm assuming you are okay with being in the minority on this because you believe it's true and that you would also love to see more people embracing this view. How is that different than Thomas Sowel's and Voddie Bauchum's view on racism and CRT? Yet, earlier you sort of pushed back on promoting what they have to say because they are not supported by the majority of black academics.

[Robert]

When I was in Bible college a new sort of Marxism came to the forefront – only a lot of people didn’t recognize the marxist thought it involved – Liberation Theology. It was presented in my missiology courses as a great work of God, bringing minorities into the “harvest fields” as co-labors. But although the common Biblical terms of sin & salvation were at the forefront, they didn’t mean the same things. “Sin” was defined as being oppressed, and “salvation” as freedom from oppression, In some contexts, this seems to dovetail with a good deal of the talk about “race” today.

If I understand correctly, Critical Theory(CT) has it foundations in Liberation Theology, and CRT has it foundations in CT. They are all closely linked. They are all Marxist. Which is strange because Marx hated religion.

[Bootstrap]

I appreciate what you wrote Neto. I would add I don't see it as an either/or regarding personal sin/salvation versus societal sin/salvation, as much as a both/and. Liberation theology represented the other half of the coin that often got neglected by Protestant missionaries emphasis on merely "spiritual" and personal salvation rather than a Kingdom centric approach to salvation on earth as also in heaven. Perhaps the good news is much more than personal salvation from hell fire. Maybe it is literally the Kingdom of God being at hand and the arrival of the King, who set up that kingdom.

I agree. We do not need a Marxist revolution, but we do need a Church that cares about justice, mercy, and the weightier matters of the law.

II think this essay on Liberation Theology is correct in its analysis of the problem people are concerned about:

The theology of Liberation developed in the 1960s to argue for the liberation of various groups—primarily poor, black, women—from economic and political bondage. For these theologians, it is not enough to support the oppressed; one must be committed to social movements, even revolutions, dedicated to overturning the structures of society. For this purpose, liberation theologians adopt Marxism as an “analytical tool,” with which they make radical revisions to every traditional Christian doctrine.

But there's an opposite danger - if we shut our heart to the poor and to people who are suffering unrighteousness, if we encourage others to do the same, spreading contempt for them, we are not living out the Kingdom of God.

Nevertheless (I think inconsistently), the liberationists provide a lot of insight into biblical social and individual ethics. God does care especially for the poor, and those who have contempt for the poor will bear special judgment. But the liberationists, by presupposing Marxism, cut themselves off from serious discussion about the best way to aid those trapped in poverty, leaving only violence as the means of settling the question. That so many Christians have fallen into this trap is a major part of the tragedy of the church in Latin America. And those liberationists who are concerned about the state of women, or of African Americans, should beware of encouraging similar results.

Liberation Theology and CRT are not the same thing, of course. But whatever we are reading, returning to what the Bible teaches about the Kingdom of God is important. And the Bible is not just about personal salvation.

So in our society today, who are the equivalent of Samaritans, lepers, sinners and tax collectors, the woman caught in adultery, people in prison, the poor, or Gentiles? How do we relate to them as the Kingdom of God?

[joshuabgood]

I appreciate what you wrote Neto. I would add I don't see it as an either/or regarding personal sin/salvation versus societal sin/salvation, as much as a both/and. Liberation theology represented the other half of the coin that often got neglected by Protestant missionaries emphasis on merely "spiritual" and personal salvation rather than a Kingdom centric approach to salvation on earth as also in heaven. Perhaps the good news is much more than personal salvation from hell fire. Maybe it is literally the Kingdom of God being at hand and the arrival of the King, who set up that kingdom.

I agree with much of this, especially the part I bolded. But, it raises a question in my mind. Are you under the impression that most theologians and Christian academics would agree with your view on this? If the answer is no, I'm assuming you are okay with being in the minority on this because you believe it's true and that you would also love to see more people embracing this view. How is that different than Thomas Sowel's and Voddie Bauchum's view on racism and CRT? Yet, earlier you sort of pushed back on promoting what they have to say because they are not supported by the majority of black academics.

I think I have probably dropped enough ink on this already and I am content to let that lie for the most part. In short the issue is that when white people selectively amplify black voices that articulate the positions they (white people) want promoted, it rings a bit hollow. On the one hand they say they are color blind and on the other hand they specifically amplify black voices that agree with them and point out "they are black." I think the written record, as it were, shows I have affirmed voices of "the black conservative." I have read them, listened to them, respected them, etc.

Regarding theology, if one takes the long view over Christian tradition and the wide view regarding how Christians across the denominations and time have viewed the good news of Jesus, I would say Bill Bright/Ray Comfort and otherwise colloquial Protestant theology wrapped up in "the four spiritual laws" and "personal salvation" and "escaping the the fires of hell and the wrath of God" as the essence of the good news, is likely not in the majority. Protestants are a relatively small piece of the pie...though in the modern USA they have an outsized chunk. However that influence on Anabaptists is very recent, and mostly unfortunate. It shows up in most of our 20th century confessions.

Lastly, the question I am noting is not really "academic." It is experiential. If groups of people tell us they experience systemic racism, I think our default stance should be to hear them with an eye toward learning and understanding rather than explaining it away.

[joshuabgood]

When I was in Bible college a new sort of Marxism came to the forefront – only a lot of people didn’t recognize the marxist thought it involved – Liberation Theology. It was presented in my missiology courses as a great work of God, bringing minorities into the “harvest fields” as co-labors. But although the common Biblical terms of sin & salvation were at the forefront, they didn’t mean the same things. “Sin” was defined as being oppressed, and “salvation” as freedom from oppression, In some contexts, this seems to dovetail with a good deal of the talk about “race” today.

If I understand correctly, Critical Theory(CT) has it foundations in Liberation Theology, and CRT has it foundations in CT. They are all closely linked. They are all Marxist. Which is strange because Marx hated religion.

Marxism/communism is not a bogeyman to me...any more than is Capitalism or Ayn Randism. Both of them bring some valid points. Marx's critique of inequality and oppression is a valid critique. I reject his solutions. Further, his critique of organized religion is perhaps not surprising considering the state of the church in his society. Rand's critique of communism is also valid. Her ideas that those that have many talents, though they might be rich, benefit society in many ways, have merit. Her unrestrained objectivism and atheism however aren't the solution.

Salvation/solution is only found in King Jesus.

[joshuabgood]

Perhaps the good news is much more than personal salvation from hell fire. Maybe it is literally the Kingdom of God being at hand and the arrival of the King, who set up that kingdom.

When you say it's "literally the arrival of the King" do you mean in a spiritual sense or in some other "literal" sense?

What do you mean by "spiritual sense?" That is perhaps the question?

Based on how I understand your question I would say "some other literal sense." I speak about how I see it at length here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-38bs32YJc

[Falco Underhill]

Perhaps the good news is much more than personal salvation from hell fire. Maybe it is literally the Kingdom of God being at hand and the arrival of the King, who set up that kingdom.

When you say it's "literally the arrival of the King" do you mean in a spiritual sense or in some other "literal" sense?

What do you mean by "spiritual sense?" That is perhaps the question?

Based on how I understand your question I would say "some other literal sense." I speak about how I see it at length here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-38bs32YJc

When you say "the arrival of the King" do you mean in a spiritual sense as in "where two or more are gathered in my name, there am I among them"?

Or do you mean in a physical sense, as in the Second Coming!

I don't think there are any other senses, but that's why am asking what you mean.

[joshuabgood]

When you say it's "literally the arrival of the King" do you mean in a spiritual sense or in some other "literal" sense?

What do you mean by "spiritual sense?" That is perhaps the question?

Based on how I understand your question I would say "some other literal sense." I speak about how I see it at length here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-38bs32YJc

When you say "the arrival of the King" do you mean in a spiritual sense as in "where two or more are gathered in my name, there am I among them"?

Or do you mean in a physical sense, as in the Second Coming!

I don't think there are any other senses, but that's why am asking what you mean.

I mean in a physical sense with regard to the First Coming! Jesus is King, that is the Good News. The rule and reign of God have been re-established. He set up his Kingdom and then prayed that it would come on earth as also in heaven. His Kingdom represents an existential threat to the Kingdoms of this World. His Kingdom though is not a geo-political state that uses violence and coercion and borders like the worldly kingdoms. It is a law of suffering love and a gospel of peace. But it is here, present. That is what I mean...that is why Jesus preached repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

[Josh]

That seems to be direct conflict with the values espoused in things like CRT or liberation theology, which call for “direct action” against “oppressors”.