Interested in learning about Holdemans

[Ken]

Why are people so afraid of being accountable to their church community for e.g. buying an expensive vehicle?

One reason, for me, would be that we are accountable, first and foremost to God in how we live a life unto Him. Romans 14. Some church communities require conformity to their particulars on how everyone in their community must live unto the Lord. And the church down the street has their versions which differ. Sin gets defined by the group (I.e. a black truck is OK but a red truck is not). As Romans 14 says this can even get into saying what we can and cannot eat and drink. When it comes to unity it is not being forced to all think and act the same. The local church is not a bunch of robots that all look and act exactly the same. YMMV.

Indeed.

Yet, I can also see these church community "ordnungs" or rules as a means of creating a sense of community; creating a bond between the families through a shared value set; and also as a means of keeping life in the community as congenial. By this I mean that I see those rules originally served these purposes for maintaining peace and orderly lifestyles so that the members can use their extra time and resources to help each other.

How that has changed with the passage of time I cannot say nor would I judge on that matter (since I am not Anabaptist and do not know the individuals who are members).

Some rules can produce power imbalances within a church. If, for example you are in a community that emphasizes farming. The older established families on farms that were acquired generations ago, sometimes in the 19th Century, can be very prosperous and wealthy. While newer families have to struggle greatly if they are trying to farm on rented lands, or recently purchased lands at 21st Century prices. Buying a farm might have been a profitable decision in 1910 or 1940 but maybe not in 2020. And if members are discouraged from pursing other professions that are more profitable they may find themselves in a permanent position of struggle and disadvantage. I'm not saying the Holdemans are like that. I don't know much about them. But some Amish communities are like that.

[Josh]

Amish communities pool their resources to help young families buy the land needed for a farm.

[nett]

Some rules can produce power imbalances within a church. If, for example you are in a community that emphasizes farming. The older established families on farms that were acquired generations ago, sometimes in the 19th Century, can be very prosperous and wealthy. While newer families have to struggle greatly if they are trying to farm on rented lands, or recently purchased lands at 21st Century prices. Buying a farm might have been a profitable decision in 1910 or 1940 but maybe not in 2020. And if members are discouraged from pursing other professions that are more profitable they may find themselves in a permanent position of struggle and disadvantage. I'm not saying the Holdemans are like that. I don't know much about them. But some Amish communities are like that.

I think I see what your saying, and the problem is really allowing power and influence to be gained through wealth, and even seeing personal wealth as confirmation of good character or spiritual success. If the attitude in the church that it's perfectly to get fabulously wealthy (and gain power, influence and affirmation therein) as long as it's in a trade or vocation that the church is comfortable with, then that's not healthy.

Interestingly, as land prices go up, it seems like more and more Amish are entering the trades, and fewer are farming. Some of the wealthiest Amish I've encountered recently are tradesmen actually.

[Ken]

Amish communities pool their resources to help young families buy the land needed for a farm.

Maybe for longstanding families who have been in the congregation for generations. How long would it take a seeker who recently joined an Amish community to reach the point that the congregation will pool together say $2 million to buy him a farm?

[Ken]

Some rules can produce power imbalances within a church. If, for example you are in a community that emphasizes farming. The older established families on farms that were acquired generations ago, sometimes in the 19th Century, can be very prosperous and wealthy. While newer families have to struggle greatly if they are trying to farm on rented lands, or recently purchased lands at 21st Century prices. Buying a farm might have been a profitable decision in 1910 or 1940 but maybe not in 2020. And if members are discouraged from pursing other professions that are more profitable they may find themselves in a permanent position of struggle and disadvantage. I'm not saying the Holdemans are like that. I don't know much about them. But some Amish communities are like that.

I think I see what your saying, and the problem is really allowing power and influence to be gained through wealth, and even seeing personal wealth as confirmation of good character or spiritual success. If the attitude in the church that it's perfectly to get fabulously wealthy (and gain power, influence and affirmation therein) as long as it's in a trade or vocation that the church is comfortable with, then that's not healthy.

Interestingly, as land prices go up, it seems like more and more Amish are entering the trades, and fewer are farming. Some of the wealthiest Amish I've encountered recently are tradesmen actually.

That might be a reasonable choice in a relatively populace place like Lancaster County or Northern Indiana. Where Amish are basically living on the urban or exurban fringe. What if you are in an Amish group that is in a much more remote location where there aren’t really any nearby jobs in the trades? Like say rural Nebraska? Are you going to buggy commute 40 miles each way to the nearest town where there are jobs in the trades?

I’m not saying this is a pervasive or insurmountable problem. Just that adapting to a certain type of rural lifestyle is probably infinitely easier if your great great grandfather bought the farm in 1880 for cash compared to if you are trying to buy into the same lifestyle today.

I have heard stories of Amish families in severe poverty because they can’t really keep up with their more established brethren who have generational wealth in land and farms.

[Josh]

Amish communities pool their resources to help young families buy the land needed for a farm.

Maybe for longstanding families who have been in the congregation for generations. How long would it take a seeker who recently joined an Amish community to reach the point that the congregation will pool together say $2 million to buy him a farm?

The same amount of time someone is born into an Amish community. Around 20 years?

What a ridiculous question.

[Josh]

Some rules can produce power imbalances within a church. If, for example you are in a community that emphasizes farming. The older established families on farms that were acquired generations ago, sometimes in the 19th Century, can be very prosperous and wealthy. While newer families have to struggle greatly if they are trying to farm on rented lands, or recently purchased lands at 21st Century prices. Buying a farm might have been a profitable decision in 1910 or 1940 but maybe not in 2020. And if members are discouraged from pursing other professions that are more profitable they may find themselves in a permanent position of struggle and disadvantage. I'm not saying the Holdemans are like that. I don't know much about them. But some Amish communities are like that.

I think I see what your saying, and the problem is really allowing power and influence to be gained through wealth, and even seeing personal wealth as confirmation of good character or spiritual success. If the attitude in the church that it's perfectly to get fabulously wealthy (and gain power, influence and affirmation therein) as long as it's in a trade or vocation that the church is comfortable with, then that's not healthy.

Interestingly, as land prices go up, it seems like more and more Amish are entering the trades, and fewer are farming. Some of the wealthiest Amish I've encountered recently are tradesmen actually.

That might be a reasonable choice in a relatively populace place like Lancaster County or Northern Indiana. Where Amish are basically living on the urban or exurban fringe. What if you are in an Amish group that is in a much more remote location where there aren’t really any nearby jobs in the trades? Like say rural Nebraska? Are you going to buggy commute 40 miles each way to the nearest town where there are jobs in the trades?

I’m not saying this is a pervasive or insurmountable problem. Just that adapting to a certain type of rural lifestyle is probably infinitely easier if your great great grandfather bought the farm in 1880 for cash compared to if you are trying to buy into the same lifestyle today.

I have heard stories of Amish families in severe poverty because they can’t really keep up with their more established brethren who have generational wealth in land and farms.

How many Amish do you actually see and interact with?

Amish groups in middle of nowhere places go there so they can buy much cheaper land.

[justme]

Amish communities pool their resources to help young families buy the land needed for a farm.

Maybe for longstanding families who have been in the congregation for generations. How long would it take a seeker who recently joined an Amish community to reach the point that the congregation will pool together say $2 million to buy him a farm?

The same amount of time someone is born into an Amish community. Around 20 years?

What a ridiculous question.

the amish kid lived off his daddy for those 20 years.
who is the seeker supposed to live off of, while he is waiting his 20 years for someone to buy him his farm?

[ABC 123]

Maybe for longstanding families who have been in the congregation for generations. How long would it take a seeker who recently joined an Amish community to reach the point that the congregation will pool together say $2 million to buy him a farm?

The same amount of time someone is born into an Amish community. Around 20 years?

What a ridiculous question.

the amish kid lived off his daddy for those 20 years.
who is the seeker supposed to live off of, while he is waiting his 20 years for someone to buy him his farm?

Exactly.

To say that is a ridiculous question in rather biting.

[steve-in-kville]

To start off farming in this area (without "old money") is impossible. And even then, many are struggling. A few years ago my wife and I were considering renting or buying some land to grow produce for the local auction. Everyone I talked to told me to consider it a hobby that may pay for itself.