Interested in learning about Holdemans

[Josh]

Part of being plain is controlling more of the means of production yourself, instead of thinking it’s somehow progressive and sophisticated to buy everything at Wal-Mart or a shopping mall.

[Heirbyadoption]

Thanks for the reply!

Skirts, shirts, and jumpers are definitely out of line but do happen. Usually such people are on their way out of the church.

That seems like a pretty general assumption (on their way out), but ok. I just know that in the 6 years I've been up here I continue to see the same folks and they're definitely still Holdeman. Maybe their presumed departure is just taking a little longer.

In CA this is not common at all at least not in northern CA. The Central Valley congregations tend to be a bit more “liberal”, but I would be very surprised to see jewelry such as you described.

I haven't been around them much over the last decade. But it was quite common in the 80s, 90s, and part of the 2000s among some of the ones we regularly crossed paths with. Not sure it would have constituted "jewelry", maybe that gave it some grace... I suppose they could have been on their way out too?

[ohio jones]

Some people say this goes back to the ancient Flemish - Friesen divide; Manitoba was mostly Flemish background, Kansas mostly Friesen.

I imagine there are plenty of Friesens in Kansas, but that's a family name. The 16th-century division in Friesland involved the Flemish immigrants (with worldly dress and plain homes) and the native Frisians (with worldly homes and plain dress).

[Josh]

Some people say this goes back to the ancient Flemish - Friesen divide; Manitoba was mostly Flemish background, Kansas mostly Friesen.

I imagine there are plenty of Friesens in Kansas, but that's a family name. The 16th-century division in Friesland involved the Flemish immigrants (with worldly dress and plain homes) and the native Frisians (with worldly homes and plain dress).

Oops, I mean Frisian.

The Flemish background people often have a last name of Friesen, just to keep things confusing. As I keep a mixed Flemish and Frisian home myself, the question is open if we have a plain home and plain dress or a fancy home with fancy clothes.

[Sudsy]

Seems to me when it comes to dress, what is said in the NT is heavily on women's wear and it sounds to me where outward apparel is spoken about it becomes some kind of identifier of holiness amongst some Anabaptists. I grew up in some of this amongst Pentecostals.

When I read the texts, such as 1 Timothy 2:9-10, the main point is that the adornment (what is to be a woman's main identifier) is not the clothing and the way they do their hair but rather the main identifier of a godly woman is her good deeds.

This is not to dismiss what is said regarding modesty but as Jesus said we shine our lights by good deeds that bring attention to God and not ourselves.

For the men, the same focus should be good deeds that point people to the Lord. The Pharisees liked to parade around in their 'holy' clothes and Jesus made the same point - godliness is about good deeds which comes from a right heart toward others. Jesus did not point out a dress code for His followers.

Well, I don't know any Holdeman Christians where I live but good deeds would be what I think I'd be looking for. Where I live those most active in good deeds amongst Anabaptists are those considered more 'liberal' here. They get considerable attention in our local news for their good deeds, however there doesn't appear that these are pointing people to God. There is a way to 'so shine' our lights that do point people to God is how I interpret what Jesus said.

[Josh]

Generally speaking we try to stay out of the newspaper and our aid agencies don’t issue press releases.

[joshuabgood]

The women don’t seem to want to make homemade clothes for the men.

josh, you seem to have hostility towards handmade clothes. Do you think buying mass produced clothes is morally superior?

No. I don't have hostility. And no, mass produced clothes are not morally superior.

I have issues with a culture that has one set of applications and standards and expectations for women, but another for those in power. I was raised this way. I don't think it is ideal and maybe not even right.

[Josh]

The women don’t seem to want to make homemade clothes for the men.

josh, you seem to have hostility towards handmade clothes. Do you think buying mass produced clothes is morally superior?

No. I don't have hostility. And no, mass produced clothes are not morally superior.

I have issues with a culture that has one set of applications and standards and expectations for women, but another for those in power. I was raised this way. I don't think it is ideal and maybe not even right.

If you think men and women are identical, then plain/conservative Anabaptism (or, indeed, biblical Christianity) isn’t a good fit for you.

Men and women are different and have different roles and expectations.

[Soloist]

No. I don't have hostility. And no, mass produced clothes are not morally superior.

I have issues with a culture that has one set of applications and standards and expectations for women, but another for those in power. I was raised this way. I don't think it is ideal and maybe not even right.

So do you think its better for Nationwide and the more conservative groups that have hairstyle requirements for the men, suspenders, plain suit outside of church?

The Amish clearly have defined expectations on clothing for both women and men but I suspect they fail somewhere too in your reasoning and the real focus you would have is more of a direction of women submitting to men and you would hold a egalitarian view that the husband and the wife mutually submit to each other and make decisions jointly instead of the man having the final authority.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong in my perception of you.

[Josh]

Ultimately, I think men and women should wear different clothes. Very different. The world currently says men and women should wear each other’s clothes. I don’t agree with that.