Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
temporal1

Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by temporal1 »

Robert wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:03 am Whatever the numbers, it was the Bill of Rights including the 1st amendment that allowed for freeing the slaves, but that is a discussion for another thread.

The Bill of Rights was about limiting federal government and empowering the people and the states. The 1st Amendment speaks to individual rights indirectly. The federal government can not restrict or canon a religion, or the practice of it. It is why Anabaptists could come to the US and exercise our unique faith which tends to separate us from the state.

A country that the Amish can take a case to the Supreme Court and win is unique. It is not perfect, but it is unique.

i may have said it before, but i wish there could be thousands like you teaching Civics in public schools everywhere.
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by Ken »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:14 am
Robert wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:03 am Whatever the numbers, it was the Bill of Rights including the 1st amendment that allowed for freeing the slaves, but that is a discussion for another thread.

The Bill of Rights was about limiting federal government and empowering the people and the states. The 1st Amendment speaks to individual rights indirectly. The federal government can not restrict or canon a religion, or the practice of it. It is why Anabaptists could come to the US and exercise our unique faith which tends to separate us from the state.

A country that the Amish can take a case to the Supreme Court and win is unique. It is not perfect, but it is unique.

i may have said it before, but i wish there could be thousands like you teaching Civics in public schools everywhere.
If you are going to teach this in History or Civics class then you should probably get the details right.

The Bill of Rights (original 10 Amendments) did nothing to abolish slavery. It was the Emancipation Proclamation, followed up and enforced by Union Armies and made permanent by the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments that ended slavery. Not the Bill of Rights.
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Robert
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

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Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:22 pm If you are going to teach this in History or Civics class then you should probably get the details right.

The Bill of Rights (original 10 Amendments) did nothing to abolish slavery. It was the Emancipation Proclamation, followed up and enforced by Union Armies and made permanent by the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments that ended slavery. Not the Bill of Rights.
I would disagree with you, but this is NOT the thread to discuss slavery. It is not covered in the 1st Amendment. Feel free to start a thread about it.
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by Ken »

Robert wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:06 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:22 pm If you are going to teach this in History or Civics class then you should probably get the details right.

The Bill of Rights (original 10 Amendments) did nothing to abolish slavery. It was the Emancipation Proclamation, followed up and enforced by Union Armies and made permanent by the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments that ended slavery. Not the Bill of Rights.
I would disagree with you, but this is NOT the thread to discuss slavery. It is not covered in the 1st Amendment. Feel free to start a thread about it.
I don't want to argue about slavery. I was just agreeing with Josh's point and making the larger point that the United States didn't start out as some beacon of freedom just because the founders put a lot of fancy ideals down on paper in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution. It took a lot of blood, sweat, and tears as well as wars and mass social movements to turn those fancy ideals into reality for the majority of Americans over the last 250 years. And many would argue that we aren't all the way there yet.
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

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Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:36 am I was just agreeing with Josh's point and making the larger point that the United States didn't start out as some beacon of freedom just because the founders put a lot of fancy ideals down on paper in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution. It took a lot of blood, sweat, and tears as well as wars and mass social movements to turn those fancy ideals into reality for the majority of Americans over the last 250 years.
I do not disagree. I posit that the reason this has happened over time is the US Constitution has an amendment process that allows for the "more perfect" work that is needed. The Bill of Rights limits the power of government and keeps it from degrading into a totalitarian or overpowering system. The 1st Amendment is first for a reason, in my opinion. It is really key to keeping the individual liberties that allow for our expression of faith and the checks needed on a corrupt and faulty system. While I am a spectator to checks on the corruption, I value greatly the freedom of religion we do have.

The 1st Amendment is what is forcing the states to stop religious practice restrictions now. It is what allows us to home school. It is what allows us to not be forced to serve in the military. We, as Anabaptists gain so much from it. The world gains indirectly because it does set an example of religious freedom that is copied, if not legally then culturally, in many places, but not in all.
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:36 am
Robert wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:06 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:22 pm If you are going to teach this in History or Civics class then you should probably get the details right.

The Bill of Rights (original 10 Amendments) did nothing to abolish slavery. It was the Emancipation Proclamation, followed up and enforced by Union Armies and made permanent by the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments that ended slavery. Not the Bill of Rights.
I would disagree with you, but this is NOT the thread to discuss slavery. It is not covered in the 1st Amendment. Feel free to start a thread about it.
I don't want to argue about slavery. I was just agreeing with Josh's point and making the larger point that the United States didn't start out as some beacon of freedom just because the founders put a lot of fancy ideals down on paper in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution. It took a lot of blood, sweat, and tears as well as wars and mass social movements to turn those fancy ideals into reality for the majority of Americans over the last 250 years. And many would argue that we aren't all the way there yet.
So, you think America is some “beacon of freedom now? Morally superior to other countries?
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

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Robert wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:30 amThe 1st Amendment is what is forcing the states to stop religious practice restrictions now. It is what allows us to home school. It is what allows us to not be forced to serve in the military. We, as Anabaptists gain so much from it. The world gains indirectly because it does set an example of religious freedom that is copied, if not legally then culturally, in many places, but not in all.
The First Amendment really contains three equal rights: Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, and Freedom of Assembly. The past year or so has been an interesting case study in how one's view of those three rights is really colored by one's political and religious perspective. In both the Anabaptist world and the world at large.

We have had many religious groups claiming an absolute right to worship however they choose, and regardless of whatever public health measures the government put in place to curtail pandemic spread. And many multiple deaths have been linked directly back to churches that chose to meet and violate all distancing guidelines and spread the disease amongst themselves and beyond.

At the same time we had a summer of protestors who were simply employing their absolute First Amendment "right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." while the government sought to curtail that right because some on the fringes sought violence, or because people were "blocking traffic" or did not have the correct permits or whatever. Just like in the case with churches, there were many bad actors who's actions lead to violence and death. But also large majorities who merely wanted to use their First Amendment right to peacefully assemble and petition their government.

I see these two examples of First Amendment rights to be exactly the same but I think most Americans come down more on one side or the other. There are many (including some here), who seem to take an absolutist view of First Amendment religious rights, but are happy to see the government use a heavy fist to stamp out BLM protests. Who would delegitimate protest movements simply because they disagree with the message. On the other side, there are those who are happy to see the government use a heavy hand against Covid-spreading churches, but are tolerant of violence and property destruction on the part of protestors. I see the issues to be exactly the same, or twin sides of the same coin.

With respect to churches, there was a legitimate government interest in curtailing the spread of a deadly disease pitted against First Amendment freedom of religion. In some cases the government took a heavy hand and swept up churches who were acting responsibly in order to address those few who were not.

With respect to protests, there was a legitimate government interest in curtailing violence and property destruction pitted against First Amendment freedom of assembly. And in some cases the government took a heavy hand and swept up peaceful protesters who were acting responsibly in order to address those few who were not.

In the end, there churches who's actions lead directly to deaths and caused millions of dollars of cost to society in the form of increased Covid hospitalizations, lost productivity, and so forth. And there were protests or protest organizers who's actions led directly to deaths and caused millions of dollars of cost to society in the form of property destruction. Which cost to society was greater? I have no idea. But upholding First Amendment Rights does have very real costs.

The parallels are absolutely striking. In both instances I think it is the responsibility of the government and the courts to seek the least restrictive ways to regulate First Amendment rights in pursuit of other legitimate objectives (public health, law and order, etc.) And in a free society that is sometimes going to be both messy and controversial.
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:22 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:36 am
Robert wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:06 pm

I would disagree with you, but this is NOT the thread to discuss slavery. It is not covered in the 1st Amendment. Feel free to start a thread about it.
I don't want to argue about slavery. I was just agreeing with Josh's point and making the larger point that the United States didn't start out as some beacon of freedom just because the founders put a lot of fancy ideals down on paper in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution. It took a lot of blood, sweat, and tears as well as wars and mass social movements to turn those fancy ideals into reality for the majority of Americans over the last 250 years. And many would argue that we aren't all the way there yet.
So, you think America is some “beacon of freedom now? Morally superior to other countries?
No, I think America is about average when compared to peer countries with similar democratic institutions and levels of economic development. What I don't believe is in some form of "American Exceptionalism" based on religious manifest destiny or the fact that we have a Declaration of Independence and Constitution with a bill of rights. Most countries have those things too. Here is one world-wide ranking of economic and social freedom in which the US ranks 25th (New Zealand ranks top overall and Norway ranks top in social freedom of which religious freedom is a component:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_ ... -idx2021-2 I think that is probably about right. We are in the top echelon but not the best and it continues to be a work in progress.
Last edited by Ken on Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Josh

Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by Josh »

New Zealand ranking top :lol:
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Ken
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:17 pm New Zealand ranking top :lol:
You are free to come up with your own metrics and do your own rankings.
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