The Two Kingdoms

[Ken]

But I'm looking at this from the perspective of the Kingdom of God. Our motto is not "live and let live", but we do have the ministry of reconciliation. When Jesus reached out to the Samaritan woman or the adulteress or to prostitutes, he did not condemn them, he loved them, he did not call on Caesar to kill the woman caught in adultery, he shielded her from the self-righteous wrath of the mob. That doesn't mean Jesus thought that adultery, prostitution, etc. are equally good lifestyles, it means this is the way Jesus taught us to relate to a sinful world.

When I look at the testimony of Christian martyrs and Christians who have faced persecution or face it today, they look very different to me than the Christians who have persecution complexes in modern America, sometimes calling for loyalty to worldly political factions as our protectors. Theirs is a different witness, putting their faith in quite different things. If persecution does come, we had better prepare by learning from them. If persecution does not come, learning from them will still call us back to a pure faith that we have strayed from.

I'm not sure "live and let live" is the right slogan here. I think "love and be a witness to the love of Christ in order to reveal God's reconciling and transforming love" is more appropriate.

This is all well and good. And I largely agree. However your approach of "love and be a witness to the love of Christ in order to reveal God's reconciling and transforming love" is not the reality of what is happening in this country right now.

Sure, but that's why I started this thread. I want to focus on this from a Two-Kingdom, biblical, Jesus-focused perspective. So far, none of your posts in this thread do that. None of what you say is new to me, but it's all secular society stuff. Running secular society is not my calling. I suspect this is largely the right perspective for Caesar to take, but that's not what this thread is about. I also agree that getting it wrong in the name of Jesus is a terrible witness, but I want this thread to focus on what it means to get it right, following the example of Jesus, taking our Two Kingdom theology seriously.

Seriously, Ken, it feels like you are doing a filibuster. Could you please start your own thread for the secular perspective so that we, on a Mennonite forum, can discuss this from a Mennonite perspective? This is the third time I have asked. Please do not hijack this thread.

That it what I feel like I am doing. I strive to keep my two kingdoms separate. I try to scrupulously keep religion and politics out of my professional life and I try to keep politics out of my religious life. There are some perhaps, like the Amish, who can live most of their lives in just one kingdom. That is not the reality for most who have lives and careers that intersect across both. I understand that you want to blur those boundaries, or just tear them down. That is not something I think you will ever achieve in this society without inviting conflict and opposition. But it is what the Christian nationalist evangelicals are trying to to. They want to essentially merge the two kingdoms into a single one of their making. I view two kingdoms as being two separate spheres, the sacral and the secular to use the term at the top of this thread. And during the course of our lives we pass through both. There are some who I think view Two-kingdoms as meaning that you live in an armored sacral bubble that surrounds you wherever you go in the sacral or secular worlds. And who expect that it is the responsibility of wider society (the secular Kingdom) to recognize and accommodate and defer to or step out of the way whenever that bubble approaches. That isn't my thinking. I think we are ambassadors who seek to persuade, not soldiers who seek to impose our will by force.

We live in a wider world that is replete with sin. Examples are everywhere. Greed, indifference, poverty, injustice, environmental destruction of God's creation, racism, hunger, disease, pain, war, violence, and on and on. We have choices as to which we decide to confront and prioritize. As did Jesus. He spent a lot more time with the poor and downtrodden than he did lobbying the those in power to carve out privilege for his followers. The choices we make say more about us than they do about others. It is an enormous world out there and you have the freedom to choose which part or parts of it to focus your ambassadorship from the Kingdom of God. And what approach you will use to persuade.

[ohio jones]

The Anabaptist view of the two kingdoms:

--IS NOT attempting to fully participate in both kingdoms while keeping them separate.

--IS NOT attempting to unite two kingdoms into one.

--IS NOT attempting to convert or transform the kingdoms of this world, but rather the people in them.

--IS proclaiming allegiance to the Kingdom of God, while temporarily living "in" the kingdoms of this world without being "of" them.

[ohio jones]

I view two kingdoms as being two separate spheres, the sacral and the secular to use the term at the top of this thread. And during the course of our lives we pass through both. There are some who I think view Two-kingdoms as meaning that you live in an armored sacral bubble that surrounds you wherever you go in the sacral or secular worlds.

That is not the way the word "sacral" is being used in the thread this was taken from. Try this:

Sacralism is the confluence of church and state wherein one is called upon to change the other. It also denotes a perspective that views church and state as tied together instead of separate entities so that people within a geographical and political region are considered members of the dominant ecclesiastical institution.

[Bootstrap]

The smallest group by far are those who who accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts and allowed Him to make a change in them such that they become better, more compassionate people who are genuinely concerned with the welfare of others. These are the true Christians.

In this thread, I am defining true Christians as people who believe Jesus is Lord, take the Sermon on the Mount as central, and are seeking to build the Kingdom of God. They are willing to die for their faith, and the world does not understand them.

I agree that Jesus is compassionate and genuinely concerned with the welfare of others, and if we follow in the footsteps of Jesus, so will we. Sometimes that in itself may be a reason for the world to hate us, it was for true Christians in Nazi Germany. For a variety of reasons, true Christians are regularly killed in China and various other countries. I also agree that Christians can go off in weird directions that look nothing like Jesus, and that is a terrible witness to the world - the Germans who embraced Hitler are a good example of that. That's a danger in allegiances to any earthly leader.

But no, Christians aren't just people who are nice and stay in their lane and let the government tell them what that lane is. God is far above every earthly king and kingdom. We are building his kingdom in his name.

[Bootstrap]

For a quick overview of Two Kingdom theologies and Anabaptist / Mennonite perspectives, see this page:

Church and State

On MennoNet, most of us follow the understanding either Sattler or Marpeck, as oversimplified on this page. We emphatically do not follow the understanding of Luther. I think the Hangman Example is useful.

[Ken]

I view two kingdoms as being two separate spheres, the sacral and the secular to use the term at the top of this thread. And during the course of our lives we pass through both. There are some who I think view Two-kingdoms as meaning that you live in an armored sacral bubble that surrounds you wherever you go in the sacral or secular worlds.

That is not the way the word "sacral" is being used in the thread this was taken from. Try this:

Sacralism is the confluence of church and state wherein one is called upon to change the other. It also denotes a perspective that views church and state as tied together instead of separate entities so that people within a geographical and political region are considered members of the dominant ecclesiastical institution.

OK, I stand corrected in my terminology. I'm thinking of sacred vs secular as in, for example, music. But I don't attend a traditional "kingdom" church where these terms are typically used. And frankly, Kingdom Theology was not a point of emphasis during the many years that I attended Menno churches.

[Bootstrap]

OK, I stand corrected in my terminology. I'm thinking of sacred vs secular as in, for example, music. But I don't attend a traditional "kingdom" church where these terms are typically used. And frankly, Kingdom Theology was not a point of emphasis during the many years that I attended Menno churches.

Sure, that's not unusual in American Christianity.

But for the record ...what theme did Jesus talk about more than anything else? What does it mean to say Jesus is Lord? What are all those parables about kings about?

[Ken]

OK, I stand corrected in my terminology. I'm thinking of sacred vs secular as in, for example, music. But I don't attend a traditional "kingdom" church where these terms are typically used. And frankly, Kingdom Theology was not a point of emphasis during the many years that I attended Menno churches.

Sure, that's not unusual in American Christianity.

But for the record ...what theme did Jesus talk about more than anything else? What does it mean to say Jesus is Lord? What are all those parables about kings about?

Is that your measure of the importance of various Christian teachings? I expect without looking it up that it was discussion about the Kingdom of God. But as a practical matter I expect that his most important and common instructions about HOW Christians should act while members of the Kingdom of God related to topics like wealth, charity, selflessness and faith. And not at all about discrimination against nonbelievers or wielding political power or nationalism or any of the things that motivate Christian Nationalists.

[Bootstrap]

But for the record ...what theme did Jesus talk about more than anything else? What does it mean to say Jesus is Lord? What are all those parables about kings about?

Is that your measure of the importance of various Christian teachings? I expect without looking it up that it was discussion about the Kingdom of God. But as a practical matter I expect that his most important and common instructions about HOW Christians should act while members of the Kingdom of God related to topics like wealth, charity, selflessness and faith. And not at all about discrimination against nonbelievers or wielding political power or nationalism or any of the things that motivate Christian Nationalists.

To me, the problem with Christian nationalism is that it's the wrong king and the wrong kingdom. And because they are following the wrong king, they do not live by the Sermon on the Mount. They aren't ready to pick up their cross and follow Jesus, they want to pick up a gun and follow someone else who promises them he will save them.

Their king does not look like this:

The people who walk in darkness
will see a great light.
For those who live in a land of deep darkness,
a light will shine.
You will enlarge the nation of Israel,
and its people will rejoice.
They will rejoice before you
as people rejoice at the harvest
and like warriors dividing the plunder.
For you will break the yoke of their slavery
and lift the heavy burden from their shoulders.
You will break the oppressor’s rod,
just as you did when you destroyed the army of Midian.
The boots of the warrior
and the uniforms bloodstained by war
will all be burned.
They will be fuel for the fire.

For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us.
The government will rest on his shoulders.
And he will be called:
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
His government and its peace
will never end.
He will rule with fairness and justice from the throne of his ancestor David
for all eternity.
The passionate commitment of the Lord of Heaven’s Armies
will make this happen!

[Bootstrap]

But for the record ...what theme did Jesus talk about more than anything else? What does it mean to say Jesus is Lord? What are all those parables about kings about?

Is that your measure of the importance of various Christian teachings?

There are other measures you could use. I'm having a hard time thinking of any measure by which the Kingdom of God is not one of the most important themes in Scripture. It's also, for instance, a theme that is found from beginning to end in the Bible, and is emphasized over and over.

Oddly, many modern Americans think the central theme of Scripture is that we should pray this prayer so we can go to heaven, then vote for Republicans. And in many other places the central theme seems to be that we should go to church and take communion. Or that we should be nice and join our local church.

If Jesus isn't Lord of the Kingdom we give our allegiance to, we aren't in the Kingdom of God.