Can you try to stay on track with an Anabaptist perspective?
We aren’t really that concerned with what the right wing or left wing of the Presbyterians or Baptists or Methodists or non-denoms are doing. And you seem to keep confusing the churches and groups people like myself and Boot are a part of, with the right wing politically involved evangelical groups.
I agree there’s a culture war, but I disagree with you when you say we will be left alone - we absolutely are not being left alone and eventually they’ll be coming for us. Conservative Christians who don’t affirm worldly lifestyles are not going to be well liked on the left.
None of the people folks are talking about here (Christian cake bakers, gay nightclub owners, etc.) are Anabaptists.
If you want to limit the discussion to a conservative Anabaptist perspective then why don't you actually do that yourself and tell us how plain Anabaptist folks in Holmes County are being persecuted for their faith. And not stray into discussions about what is going on in the wider culture war outside of Anabaptist circles.
You seem to want to talk about just one side of a larger culture war when you say things like "we are absolutely not being left alone and eventually they'll be coming for us" without acknowledging that what you are actually talking about is a larger culture war in which two sides are tangling.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:02 amBut I'm looking at this from the perspective of the Kingdom of God. Our motto is not "live and let live", but we do have the ministry of reconciliation. When Jesus reached out to the Samaritan woman or the adulteress or to prostitutes, he did not condemn them, he loved them, he did not call on Caesar to kill the woman caught in adultery, he shielded her from the self-righteous wrath of the mob. That doesn't mean Jesus thought that adultery, prostitution, etc. are equally good lifestyles, it means this is the way Jesus taught us to relate to a sinful world.
When I look at the testimony of Christian martyrs and Christians who have faced persecution or face it today, they look very different to me than the Christians who have persecution complexes in modern America, sometimes calling for loyalty to worldly political factions as our protectors. Theirs is a different witness, putting their faith in quite different things. If persecution does come, we had better prepare by learning from them. If persecution does not come, learning from them will still call us back to a pure faith that we have strayed from.
I'm not sure "live and let live" is the right slogan here. I think "love and be a witness to the love of Christ in order to reveal God's reconciling and transforming love" is more appropriate.
This is all well and good. And I largely agree. However your approach of "love and be a witness to the love of Christ in order to reveal God's reconciling and transforming love" is not the reality of what is happening in this country right now.
Sure, but that's why I started this thread. I want to focus on this from a Two-Kingdom, biblical, Jesus-focused perspective. So far, none of your posts in this thread do that. None of what you say is new to me, but it's all secular society stuff. Running secular society is not my calling. I suspect this is largely the right perspective for Caesar to take, but that's not what this thread is about. I also agree that getting it wrong in the name of Jesus is a terrible witness, but I want this thread to focus on what it means to get it right, following the example of Jesus, taking our Two Kingdom theology seriously.
Seriously, Ken, it feels like you are doing a filibuster. Could you please start your own thread for the secular perspective so that we, on a Mennonite forum, can discuss this from a Mennonite perspective? This is the third time I have asked. Please do not hijack this thread.
Josh wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:41 pm
I agree there’s a culture war, but I disagree with you when you say we will be left alone - we absolutely are not being left alone and eventually they’ll be coming for us. Conservative Christians who don’t affirm worldly lifestyles are not going to be well liked on the left.
So what would Jesus do under those circumstances? How has the persecuted Church related to this historically?
Can you try to stay on track with an Anabaptist perspective?
We aren’t really that concerned with what the right wing or left wing of the Presbyterians or Baptists or Methodists or non-denoms are doing. And you seem to keep confusing the churches and groups people like myself and Boot are a part of, with the right wing politically involved evangelical groups.
I agree there’s a culture war, but I disagree with you when you say we will be left alone - we absolutely are not being left alone and eventually they’ll be coming for us. Conservative Christians who don’t affirm worldly lifestyles are not going to be well liked on the left.
None of the people folks are talking about here (Christian cake bakers, gay nightclub owners, etc.) are Anabaptists.
If you want to limit the discussion to a conservative Anabaptist perspective then why don't you actually do that yourself and tell us how plain Anabaptist folks in Holmes County are being persecuted for their faith. And not stray into discussions about what is going on in the wider culture war outside of Anabaptist circles.
You seem to want to talk about just one side of a larger culture war when you say things like "we are absolutely not being left alone and eventually they'll be coming for us" without acknowledging that what you are actually talking about is a larger culture war in which two sides are tangling.
Our church is currently being run out of Quebec and forcing our only church for French speaking people on North America out of a French speaking majority location. The local townspeople don’t want us to leave and have been very supportive but we can’t do anything about what comes straight from the top in the province. (Ultra Orthodox Jewish people are in exactly the same boat as us and also being forced out.)
Holmes County is one of the friendliest places for plain people. My own church has no presence there however and no plans to establish one.
Can you try to stay on track with an Anabaptist perspective?
We aren’t really that concerned with what the right wing or left wing of the Presbyterians or Baptists or Methodists or non-denoms are doing. And you seem to keep confusing the churches and groups people like myself and Boot are a part of, with the right wing politically involved evangelical groups.
I agree there’s a culture war, but I disagree with you when you say we will be left alone - we absolutely are not being left alone and eventually they’ll be coming for us. Conservative Christians who don’t affirm worldly lifestyles are not going to be well liked on the left.
None of the people folks are talking about here (Christian cake bakers, gay nightclub owners, etc.) are Anabaptists.
If you want to limit the discussion to a conservative Anabaptist perspective then why don't you actually do that yourself and tell us how plain Anabaptist folks in Holmes County are being persecuted for their faith. And not stray into discussions about what is going on in the wider culture war outside of Anabaptist circles.
You seem to want to talk about just one side of a larger culture war when you say things like "we are absolutely not being left alone and eventually they'll be coming for us" without acknowledging that what you are actually talking about is a larger culture war in which two sides are tangling.
Our church is currently being run out of Quebec and forcing our only church for French speaking people on North America out of a French speaking majority location. The local townspeople don’t want us to leave and have been very supportive but we can’t do anything about what comes straight from the top in the province. (Ultra Orthodox Jewish people are in exactly the same boat as us and also being forced out.)
Holmes County is one of the friendliest places for plain people. My own church has no presence there however and no plans to establish one.
I know very little about religious rights in Canada. Although from what I have seen and heard during the pandemic, and from what little I have read about the jailing of conscientious objectors during WW2 it seems that the traditions of separation of church and state and freedom of religion are not as strong in Canada as they are in the US, and it isn't necessarily a new development.
It would be interesting to see a comprehensive point-by-point comparison or analysis of the two countries in terms of religious liberties that looks at everything from mainstream Christianity to Native American and minority religious rights.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:16 pm
Seriously, Ken, it feels like you are doing a filibuster. Could you please start your own thread for the secular perspective so that we, on a Mennonite forum, can discuss this from a Mennonite perspective? This is the third time I have asked. Please do not hijack this thread.
Regarding the earlier discussion of nominal and sacral Christianity in America. I tend to think there are basically three different groups of people who self-identify as Christians in this country.
The smallest group by far are those who who accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts and allowed Him to make a change in them such that they become better, more compassionate people who are genuinely concerned with the welfare of others. These are the true Christians.
A larger group are those who were baptized as little kids after being subtly or overtly pressured into it by family members and then were raised to believe that, as a result, they were intrinsically superior to others and could be as hateful, selfish, and cruel as they wanted to others and still be guaranteed passage into Heaven. These are the Christian nationalists who weaponize Christianity in favor of hateful ends like segregation. Looking at the past four years I'm not sure they are really declining. Or if they are, they are in a furious last gasp for power and influence. The SBC is struggling with the fact that many of the people in their top leadership really fall into this category. And they will be battling for power and control this week at their national convention. For them, Christianity is a weapon used to achieve other ends (wealth, power, status, etc.).
The largest group of all are those who, growing up and living in a predominantly Christian society have just absorbed the cultural trappings of the dominant society (Christmas, Easter, weddings, etc.) and just self-identify as Christian by default because to do anything else (atheism or another faith) would be too odd and individualistic. They identify as Christians by default just like they identify as Americans by default. These are the nominal Christians who are Christians in name only.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:11 pm
The smallest group by far are those who who accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts and allowed Him to make a change in them such that they become better, more compassionate people who are genuinely concerned with the welfare of others. These are the true Christians.
Ok. So to revisit an earlier question ... how many presidents have been Christians? No need to identify them by name, but how about taking a stab at an approximate percentage?
Actually you're saying pretty much the same thing as I did at the end of page 22, except you have three categories where I had two. And I do think it is helpful to distinguish the weaponized Christian nationalists from the cultural nominal Christians. Together these two make up the "nominal and sacral Christianity" that is the focus of this thread, in contrast to true Christianity. In a sense they are different faces of the American civil religion.
These groups may grow and shrink at different rates, of course, but perhaps the net result will look something like one of Tim Keller's predictions from the OP:
Christianity will drop to about 25-35% of Americans, but it will be a more committed Christianity
ohio jones wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:58 pm
Actually you're saying pretty much the same thing as I did at the end of page 22, except you have three categories where I had two. And I do think it is helpful to distinguish the weaponized Christian nationalists from the cultural nominal Christians. Together these two make up the "nominal and sacral Christianity" that is the focus of this thread, in contrast to true Christianity. In a sense they are different faces of the American civil religion.
These groups may grow and shrink at different rates, of course, but perhaps the net result will look something like one of Tim Keller's predictions from the OP:
Christianity will drop to about 25-35% of Americans, but it will be a more committed Christianity
The other good news: it will be a more Kingdom-oriented Christianity. The Gospel of the Kingdom of God is very much making a comeback these days, pushed by everyone from N.T. Wright to The Bible Project ("the Bible is one unified story that leads to Jesus"). These accounts of the Kingdom of God are quite compatible with Mennonite theology, but they go one step further: they bring in the Old Testament as part of the story, with close readings of the Old Testament that hold up well, explaining things that baffled me because of the lack of understanding of the Old Testament in the churches I had been part of.
And I think it will be a more Christlike Christianity. Seriously, I think the rot of politicized Christianity and American civil religion has become serious enough that it is falling away and the Christianity that survives will be part of a revival movement. I think America is ripe for that. And I am praying for that.