The Anabaptist Vision unmasked

[Josh]

Boot, do you really want to see some strict code of conduct and statement of faith & practice adopted here?

No, but I do think that people who believe in the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, the centrality of the Sermon on the Mount, and seeing all of Scripture through the words and example of Jesus Christ could have discussions that look like that.

Likewise, whilst I don’t harbour hatred towards MC USA members, my own church conference gave up trying to have any unity with them in 1859. I personally gave up a number of years ago. It is impossible for me to share a united Anabaptist witness with them, so I don’t even try.

So how are you pursuing this on your own, in your posts on MennoNet? How are you using your posts as an Anabaptist witness that looks like what is in Bender's article?

One of the core Anabaptist values is speaking up, like Blaurock did for six months when he interrupted Mass to preach the gospel. That’s a lot of what I feel my purpose here is.

One of my areas of focus is speaking up against fashionable, mainstream nonsense, which is something Anabaptists are prone to embracing.

[Bootstrap]

One of the core Anabaptist values is speaking up, like Blaurock did for six months when he interrupted Mass to preach the gospel. That’s a lot of what I feel my purpose here is.

One of my areas of focus is speaking up against fashionable, mainstream nonsense, which is something Anabaptists are prone to embracing.

What percent of the things you say comes from the Bible or is based in Two Kingdom theology? How much of what you say is a witness to what Jesus said and did or to the vision we see in the article we are discussing here?

Do you believe that fashionable right wing political nonsense also exists, and that it is different from what Jesus said and did? To what extent do you believe that Christians should be foot soldiers for political causes? How does that affect your focus here?

[Wayne in Maine]

Ultimately I don’t think there is any unity between MC USA Mennonites and conservative Mennonites so we can’t be a witness together.

I'm sad to hear this is your opinion. Some MC-USA Mennonites are fairly conservative. I consider you a brother in Christ which gives me a big sense of unity. Don't you agree with most of the Confession of Faith in a Mennonite Perspective?

I suspect Josh has this sort of thing in mind, not a mere "confession of faith":
A total way of life: Our journeys from Evangelicalism to Anabaptism

What the author describes is not in the least Anabaptist, it is at best the Protestant Social Gospel with the usual modern neo-Marxists twists.

[Josh]

One of the core Anabaptist values is speaking up, like Blaurock did for six months when he interrupted Mass to preach the gospel. That’s a lot of what I feel my purpose here is.

One of my areas of focus is speaking up against fashionable, mainstream nonsense, which is something Anabaptists are prone to embracing.

What percent of the things you say comes from the Bible or is based in Two Kingdom theology? How much of what you say is a witness to what Jesus said and did or to the vision we see in the article we are discussing here?

I don’t claim to have a corner on perfection but my beliefs do influence what I say. And I think a lot of mainstream, worldly ideologies really get in the way of kingdom building.

So that’s why I spoke out in March against some people who were claiming covid was a non existent disease and go on with life as usual.

One year later, I’m speaking out against those who think suspending church for a year is OK.

Do you believe that fashionable right wing political nonsense also exists, and that it is different from what Jesus said and did? To what extent do you believe that Christians should be foot soldiers for political causes? How does that affect your focus here?

Yes, and you may recall I often spoke up against it, but eventually decided it wasn’t a strong enough mainstream narrative to be worth the effort. I focus more on what dominant voices are saying.

I also decided to cease arguing with a few specific people here who repeated right wing click bait and didn’t seem to have any interest in stopping.

MennoNet is not my mission field to see how much I can promote liberal-progressive values, particularly when liberal voices have become so loud around here. A couple people I know in real life have quit reading it because they think it’s full of liberal stuff. One person formed the opinion that this forum is pro abortion. When that’s the impression the public gets, it means a balance is needed to push back against that. I haven’t heard anyone complain to me this forum is too conservative or too right wing political.

[Josh]

Since Wayne posted it, here is exactly the sort of leftist-progressive thing I’m here to speak up against:

We’ve watched with dismay as the same Evangelicals who taught us that humans bear the image of God (Genesis 1:27) repudiate humane immigration policies, the #MeToo and #BlackLivesMatter movements, advocacy for LGBTQ people and environmental policies that directly affect Indigenous peoples and communities in poverty.

I’m very puzzled how one gets from obedience to scripture to “advocacy for LGBTQ people”.

It also bears repeating that the above list of things are mainstream and embodied in America’s dominant culture, yet not involved in Anabaptism at all. There’s a degree of sophistry in claiming the above list is influenced by Anabaptism at all.

[Bootstrap]

If you want to drive a car safely down the street, you can take two approaches.

1. You can try to make sure you know where every car and obstacle is and avoid them all at the same time.
2. You can focus on staying in your lane, watching out for anything that is getting between you and moving straight ahead.

Suppose we want to take a Christian view of refugees, LGBTQ, race, or wealth and poverty. Wouldn't we start with the Bible instead of the latest political talking points? But even if we try to discuss what the Bible says on these things, it often seems to get sidetracked by the political talking points. Suppose we assumed that everything is about Jesus and the Kingdom of God, not that everything is somehow about Trump or the battle between political liberals and political conservatives.

I also think a careful look at history and a reflective look at our own culture from many points of view can be helpful and can lead to wisdom. But the polarization makes it very hard. When we try to discuss those things here, we don't seem to be able to have the kind of discussion that indicates reading and understanding different points of view in the world around us, carefully relating that to our own biblical world view. Maybe that's too much to ask for in most forums, but it's especially hard to do that given the emotional tone of most discussion here.

To me, it really does look like political framing tends to be primary here, and biblical discussion of topics in any depth is much less frequent. I think that is unfortunate. I would love to have a careful discussion of the Bible and racial and ethnic groups, for instance, I think it's a major part of the biblical story.

[JimFoxvog]

Ultimately I don’t think there is any unity between MC USA Mennonites and conservative Mennonites so we can’t be a witness together.

I'm sad to hear this is your opinion. Some MC-USA Mennonites are fairly conservative. I consider you a brother in Christ which gives me a big sense of unity. Don't you agree with most of the Confession of Faith in a Mennonite Perspective?

Most congregations have gone in a different direction. The ones nearest me have gone in the direction of abandoning nonresistance and embracing politics. Some left wing, some right wing.

There just isn’t much left in common.

Individual people are a different story, but I also have friends who Baptists, Pentecostals and so forth. But that doesn’t mean I’m a good fit on a Baptist or Reformed discussion board.

I don't know about most congregations. Our MC-USA congregation holds to the Confession of Faith. We have not abandoned nonresistance. Some in our congregation have embraced politics (some left-wing, some right-wing) and some haven't.

[Josh]

Your church is very much out of the ordinary (unfortunately), I’ve always liked it and back when the farm was still going wanted to visit the now defunct congregation there.

My own former mc USA congregation featured a youth pastor who started carrying concealed after getting mugged in the city, and shared this during a sermon. Things change quickly. Another girl there joined the Guard and we had a sending off for her and raised prayers for her to get thru basic training. No cultural context left for room that maybe enlisting isn’t a good thing.

Down the road, the church that used to be CMC and is now MC USA is full blown into lgbt affirmation. The downtown Mc USA church I used to like visiting had a 50/50 vote about it, quite unpleasant, so now half the church wants to affirm and the other half is unhappy about it.

It’s a mess and a big distraction from what Anabaptism is about. If you’ve been able to steer clear of this stuff consider yourself blessed.

[Soloist]

Suppose we want to take a Christian view of refugees, LGBTQ, race, or wealth and poverty. Wouldn't we start with the Bible instead of the latest political talking points? But even if we try to discuss what the Bible says on these things, it often seems to get sidetracked by the political talking points. Suppose we assumed that everything is about Jesus and the Kingdom of God, not that everything is somehow about Trump or the battle between political liberals and political conservatives.

Okay so with LGBTQ and Race, there is no difference in the calling to leave sin behind. While I support a struggling person to leave those things, I do not support someone embracing that ideology. The same is true for the black lives matter, blue lives matter. Both need to leave that sin behind and follow Jesus.

It is a high calling for a transgender to abandon that and follow Jesus. The same calling to leave a life of sin is applied fairly although for some its harder then others to overcome. That is where our love rightly comes in. Love for the lost, but not love for the sin. We cannot welcome non-repentant sinners as they reject God by their own choices.

Our churches will not welcome those who are pro LGBTQ as how the world defines that. The same is true of race. The same should be true for wealth and this is a significant blind spot in the church.

[JimFoxvog]

Y
It’s a mess and a big distraction from what Anabaptism is about. If you’ve been able to steer clear of this stuff consider yourself blessed.

We'll see what happens when the congregation actually discusses the homosexual issue. I fear a split may be possible; there are people who feel strongly on each side. I expect that's why we've been avoiding the discussion. Do you think we should continue to avoid the issue?