The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

[Soloist]

Here is a list of the religious affiliations of every president of the US. I'll make it easy and limit it to just the 20th and 21st Centuries. So from William McKinley to Joe Biden. You can tell us which ones were Christians and which were not

If by "Christian" you mean not atheist, jewish, muslim, buddhist, or hindu -- all of them, though some might quibble about Obama.

If by "Christian" you mean a follower of Jesus -- in my lifetime, possibly Carter.

What do you think it means to be a Christian?

So you think you are God and can judge who a Christian is? You feel qualified to judge them? They all said they were Christian.

Of course he doesn't think he is God, but we are called to reject heresy... While I can appreciate some actions presidents have taken, I would have a very hard time accepting them as Christians unless their lives reflected that. For example, Trump behaved very unchristian and I certainly never heard him apologize... How can you be Christian and support transgender ideology? Sure we are called to love them, but not pass laws requiring the surgeries they want covered. How Christian is it to love someone into hell?
While I personally have respect for Obama's presidency I would not take his statement of repentance here to actually reflect true faith as the follow on quote would reflect passing a law to support sin.

“This magnificent grace, this expansive grace, this ‘Amazing Grace’ calls me to reflect. And it calls me to pray. It calls me to ask God for forgiveness for the times that I’ve not shown grace to others, those times that I’ve fallen short.”

2012: On shift in his and the first lady’s views on same-sex marriage

“We are both practicing Christians, and obviously this position may be considered to put us at odds with the views of others, but, you know, when we think about our faith, the thing at root that we think about is, not only Christ sacrificing himself on our behalf, but it’s also the golden rule, you know, treat others the way you would want to be treated."

How far back would you have to go to find a president that followed Jesus and His words? I don't think we ever had one. While I accept the outward trappings of Mennonitism isn't what I'm talking about, I would see that anyone who didn't follow the words of Jesus is not a Christian and I stand by this despite this singling out several people on Menno just on non-resistance alone. There clearly is a difference between a new convert traveling towards Christianity and travelling away.
With all that being said... Who is saved? the man who shoots the enemy despite claiming a non-resistance stance, or the man who claims to hate his enemies and lays down his life rather then kill? We know that some we accept are not true and faithful and likely by implication, the reverse is true. Should it be that way? no... but I would find it pretty safe to not allow a politician to join my church on grounds of unfaithfulness to the teachings of Jesus.

[Bootstrap]

Of course he doesn't think he is God, but we are called to reject heresy... While I can appreciate some actions presidents have taken, I would have a very hard time accepting them as Christians unless their lives reflected that.

In this thread, I really am starting from the belief that most of the Christianity in American society is nominal Christianity, not discipleship, and that most presidents and other politicians who claim to be Christian are nominal Christians, some even are fundamentally opposed to important parts of what Christianity stands for while claiming to be Christian.

Mennonites and Anabaptists have traditionally followed a Two Kingdom theology. There are variants on this - Marpeck vs. Sattler is one distinction that has been widely discussed here. But they all focus on The Kingdom versus The World, and they see the government as part of The World. The distinctions they make generally involve (1) how they describe the government's Romans 13 role and whether government is fundamentally evil, and (2) when should a Christian obey the government and when does that conflict with a Christian's higher calling.

That's at odds with other theological traditions. Luther and Augustine each had a Two Kingdom theology too, but they gave the State a different role, and were much less skeptical of the King's Christianity. Theonomists think Christians should take over the government and make the laws Christian.

In America, politicized Christianity sometimes seems to portray the government as an arm of Christianity and presidential preachers sometimes sound like preachers, going as far as saying, "Only I can save you". Politicized Christianity has attracted fanatical loyalty even among people who are very earnest in worship and Scripture and who clearly order some parts of their lives around God. Sometimes it seems to have a flavor of "we will make those people do what we know is right." Sometimes it seems to have a flavor of "it's us versus them, we need to defeat them." To some non-Christians, I think it is the most visible expression of Christianity, but I don't think it looks anything like the Kingdom of God.

I think there's a real opportunity for renewal here. We need a church that is fanatically devoted to Jesus and to the Kingdom of God. I suspect that will always be a minority in any country.

[temporal1]

Outsider:
He might not get re-elected in South Carolina, but there's certainly thousands of churches which would accept him as gay. About half of the Episcopals, many liberal megachurches, and liberal versions of various other denominations.

I replied to your post compairing gay nightclubs to churches with a simular statement, but it seems to have dissappeared.
Perhaps my mention of fertilizer caused it to happen?

i did not see this post.

I'm just making the point that he gains more "privilege" as a Baptist politician in South Carolina than he ever would as a gay politician in South Carolina. And you know that is true.

It wouldn't be true in districts with large cities like New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, or even New Orleans or Atlanta.

The push is to be rid of the Electoral College, along with other manipulative legal and social moves, to assure leftist agenda prominence in every matter. appleman, in Canada, with no EC, shares valid warnings about loss of conservative voice in Canada.
“A word to the wise is sufficient.”

If Graham came out as gay it would absolutely boost his political career. The Republican Party openly accepts such things - goodness, they’re happy to have Bruce Jenner run for governor as Caitlin Jenner.

Career politicians at work. 1 party masquerading as 2 for political theater. The audience eats it up.

I've been saying that for years.
They certainly work hand-in-hand to keep any alternative parties out of the debates, and do everything they can to marginalize them.

i do not doubt your foresight one iota.

i’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer. by the time i recognize (anything) - it’s beyond denial.
i was vaguely aware of the “trend” - because, like you, others have observed it FOR YEARS. i was not understanding and dubious.
eventually, i sometimes can put 2+2 together. this dire political situation has developed+worsened over decades.

things beyond denial are not beyond hope. God is greater than ALL our human failures put together.
whether we can see Him or not.

do see the failures, don’t deny them, don’t be blind, and PRAY for mercy, wisdom, guidance to His Way.
i try. i fall short.

[Bootstrap]

Lindsey Graham is a good case in point. He is the Senator from South Carolina and big Trump supporter. Also a self-identified Southern Baptist who likes to do photo ops in Baptist churches when back home in South Carolina. There are also longstanding rumors that he is gay. Do you honestly think he would advantage his political career in South Carolina if he renounced Christianity and came out publicly as gay? Because gays are more privileged than Christians in this society? If so I have a bridge to sell you.

He might not get re-elected in South Carolina, but there's certainly thousands of churches which would accept him as gay. About half of the Episcopals, many liberal megachurches, and liberal versions of various other denominations. I replied to your post compairing gay nightclubs to churches with a simular statement, but it seems to have dissappeared. Perhaps my mention of fertilizer caused it to happen?

The widespread acceptance of gay marriage is one of the things that inspired this thread. And of promiscuity in general, gay or otherwise. At least to those of us who think the Bible teaches faithfulness within marriage and forbids gay marriage, it's hard to explain what we believe, it's easy for them to think we are just being bigots, it's at odds with what they see as right and good. Public morality is one step further removed from our Christian discipleship. We are strangers in a strange land, we always were, but it's getting stranger.

I don't think that's a cause for outrage, that's just who we are.

See what great love the Father has given us that we should be called God’s children—and we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it didn’t know him. Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when he appears, we will be like him because we will see him as he is. And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself just as he is pure.

And this is what our Kingdom looks like:

Do not be surprised, brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers and sisters. The one who does not love remains in death. Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. This is how we have come to know love: He laid down his life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. If anyone has this world’s goods and sees a fellow believer in need but withholds compassion from him—how does God’s love reside in him? Little children, let us not love in word or speech, but in action and in truth.

I think this is a good time to be praying for renewal and for a revival of biblical faith that focuses on Jesus and the Kingdom of God. Starting with us. We can't do that if our whole focus is on what's wrong with them, we need to focus on what God is calling us to. And I imagine there's plenty of repentance and seeking to do within the Kingdom of God.

[silentreader]

Lindsey Graham is a good case in point. He is the Senator from South Carolina and big Trump supporter. Also a self-identified Southern Baptist who likes to do photo ops in Baptist churches when back home in South Carolina. There are also longstanding rumors that he is gay. Do you honestly think he would advantage his political career in South Carolina if he renounced Christianity and came out publicly as gay? Because gays are more privileged than Christians in this society? If so I have a bridge to sell you.

He might not get re-elected in South Carolina, but there's certainly thousands of churches which would accept him as gay. About half of the Episcopals, many liberal megachurches, and liberal versions of various other denominations. I replied to your post compairing gay nightclubs to churches with a simular statement, but it seems to have dissappeared. Perhaps my mention of fertilizer caused it to happen?

The widespread acceptance of gay marriage is one of the things that inspired this thread. And of promiscuity in general, gay or otherwise. At least to those of us who think the Bible teaches faithfulness within marriage and forbids gay marriage, it's hard to explain what we believe, it's easy for them to think we are just being bigots, it's at odds with what they see as right and good. Public morality is one step further removed from our Christian discipleship. We are strangers in a strange land, we always were, but it's getting stranger.

I don't think that's a cause for outrage, that's just who we are.

See what great love the Father has given us that we should be called God’s children—and we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it didn’t know him. Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when he appears, we will be like him because we will see him as he is. And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself just as he is pure.

And this is what our Kingdom looks like:

Do not be surprised, brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers and sisters. The one who does not love remains in death. Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. This is how we have come to know love: He laid down his life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. If anyone has this world’s goods and sees a fellow believer in need but withholds compassion from him—how does God’s love reside in him? Little children, let us not love in word or speech, but in action and in truth.

I think this is a good time to be praying for renewal and for a revival of biblical faith that focuses on Jesus and the Kingdom of God. Starting with us. We can't do that if our whole focus is on what's wrong with them, we need to focus on what God is calling us to. And I imagine there's plenty of repentance and seeking to do within the Kingdom of God.

And so it is that the words of Jesus are becoming increasingly relevant in our time:(Luke 18:1-8 CSB)

Now he told them a parable on the need for them to pray always and not give up. 2 “There was a judge in a certain town who didn’t fear God or respect people. 3 And a widow in that town kept coming to him, saying, ‘Give me justice against my adversary.’

4 “For a while he was unwilling, but later he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or respect people, 5 yet because this widow keeps pestering me, I will give her justice, so that she doesn’t wear me out by her persistent coming.’”

6 Then the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 Will not God grant justice to his elect who cry out to him day and night? Will he delay helping them? 8 I tell you that he will swiftly grant them justice. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

[ken_sylvania]

RZehr did not claim that LGBT organizations are privileged over religious organizations in our tax code.

His exact words were: "what minority right do you think is more powerful in this country today, gay or religious? There is no question that gay rights are much more stylish that religion is."

Which I pushed back against by discussing: (1) who has the ACTUAL power in this country in its highest institutions like the Supreme Court and Senate, Christians or LGBT folks? and (2) how both religious and gay organizations are treated and privileged by the US government. The biggest example of which is the tax code and regulations in general.

You want another example of how this actually works in real life? About 15 years ago we lived in the town of China Spring Texas (outside Waco). Soon after we moved there a family moved in down the street into the biggest McMansion on the street and immediately dumped over $100,000 into the place building a fancy pool, new landscaping, etc. It turns out the father was a self-declared martial arts expert, self promoter, and he ran his own prison ministry. He got himself a big write-up in the local paper which made me curious. And he had two 10 year old daughters who joined my daughter's youth soccer team that I coached. My daughter would go down the street to their house from time to time so I felt the need to investigate who these people were.

Basically he sat all day long in his home office playing online video games with 3-screens. His kids said he was always there gaming and never did any actual work. He tried to get my wife to write him a prescription to some sort of opioids because he claimed back pain. She told him "you aren't my patient, I can't possibly do that". He pulled his kids out of the local schools which he deemed too liberal (this was ultra-Baptist rural Texas) and home schooled them by buying some sort of educational DVDs that they would sit in front of the TV and watch. The kids were basically feral with no teaching or supervision from Dad. Mom was out of the picture and he had a rotating series of girl friends passing through. About once a month he would head out to do some sort of martial arts demo at one of the local prisons as part of his "ministry" and he had a fancy web site that solicited donations for his ministry from local corporate interests and such. He put his home in the name of his ministry to avoid paying any property taxes and appeared to basically live off his self-promotion and fundraising prowess because he had no visible means of income.

I actually called the local property tax office to ask about him and turn him in for a fraudulent religious exemption as he clearly wasn't really running any sort of ministry. But they blew me off and said they didn't have time to investigate all the hundreds of religious exemptions that they get. I'm willing to bet that if he was some sort of self-declared LGBT activist claiming a fraudulent property tax exemption they would have been all over him in a heartbeat. This is the actual property I'm talking about if you are curious. He and his family are long gone and I don't know who lives there now: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1117 ... 0468_zpid/ This is the pool he put in using tax-exempt religious donations:



So yes. The gays might be more "stylish" as RZehr puts it. They do run the fashion industry after all as was noted in the barefoot thread. But it is still religion that is actually privileged in this country. In hundreds of ways large and small.

Robert Wilcox? Is that who you're talking about?

[ken_sylvania]

So yes. The gays might be more "stylish" as RZehr puts it. They do run the fashion industry after all as was noted in the barefoot thread. But it is still religion that is actually privileged in this country. In hundreds of ways large and small.

If I owned a business, do you think that there is any chance that it would get any special treatment or special opportunities on a federal contract due to it being owned by a Christian or by a Mennonite?

Do you think there is any chance that a business would get special treatment or special opportunities due to it being owned by a gay or lesbian person?

[Ken]

Robert Wilcox? Is that who you're talking about?

Actually that was another neighbor who built a big pool. This is the house I should have linked to. It has been awhile and I had them confused.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1235 ... 0544_zpid/

We had the 2200 sf house down the street that I bought partially finished from the builder and spent a couple months fixing up and cleaning out the scorpions and rattlesnakes before moving in. But it was a neighborhood where some people built some pretty big estates. Haven't been there in 13 years.

[Ken]

How far back would you have to go to find a president that followed Jesus and His words? I don't think we ever had one. While I accept the outward trappings of Mennonitism isn't what I'm talking about, I would see that anyone who didn't follow the words of Jesus is not a Christian and I stand by this despite this singling out several people on Menno just on non-resistance alone. There clearly is a difference between a new convert traveling towards Christianity and travelling away.

With all that being said... Who is saved? the man who shoots the enemy despite claiming a non-resistance stance, or the man who claims to hate his enemies and lays down his life rather then kill? We know that some we accept are not true and faithful and likely by implication, the reverse is true. Should it be that way? no... but I would find it pretty safe to not allow a politician to join my church on grounds of unfaithfulness to the teachings of Jesus.

So if presidents are representative of people in general (neither better nor worse). And we have had 45 presidents. Then according to your faith, less than 1 in 45 are true Christians and saved? And I expect by extension less than 1 in 45 (or about 2%) of Americans are similarly true Christians and saved?

I know I don't see eye to eye with many on this forum. But I have a hard time believing in a loving and just God who is going to burn down and condemn to Hell 98% of those he created in his own image.

Personally I can't see into another person's soul. But I do know that there is no person on earth with whom we could not find some fault with. And there are few who have no redeeming qualities at all. So I am loath to judge who is and isn't a Christian much less who is or isn't saved. And I tend to take people at their word when it comes to matters of faith.

[Bootstrap]

So if presidents are representative of people in general (neither better nor worse). And we have had 45 presidents. Then according to your faith, less than 1 in 45 are true Christians and saved? And I expect by extension less than 1 in 45 (or about 2%) of Americans are similarly true Christians and saved?

I don't know the exact numbers, but I do believe that the majority of Americans are not committed disciples of Jesus Christ. Could we please treat that as the premise of this thread? It's hard to discuss how we, as part of that smaller group, should relate to changes in the society around us if we do not start from that premise. If you want to challenge the premise, perhaps in another thread?

So yes. The gays might be more "stylish" as RZehr puts it. They do run the fashion industry after all as was noted in the barefoot thread. But it is still religion that is actually privileged in this country. In hundreds of ways large and small.

I agree with this. Even nominal Christianity has conveyed lots of privileges on committed disciples because it at least paid lip service to much of what we believe and did not want to challenge us or call us bigots. If gay marriage is seen as a civil right, mainstream society sees us as rejecting a basic right, the right for people to decide whom to love and to marry. That's even a legal right now. If we believe the Bible forbids that, it makes us look strange and even unloving.

I think it's important that we be careful not to spread hate or to be unloving, but I also think that discipleship calls us to reject many things that our society celebrates. This is not the only issue. That's why some Mennonites were jailed for refusing to serve in time of war, for instance. But most of us have been awfully comfortable in this society for most of our lives.